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apex · Platinum Member Joined: 23 Feb 2010 Posts: 2340

Why are Romplers like the series found in Motif, Fantom, M3/Triton frowned upon (a bad thing)? And is this why the Kronos or j-80 could be/is so special?
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ScoobyDoo555 · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject:

Don't think that it's a frowning, but more that in this day and age, with technology going much further, just being able to "romple" (adj) isn't enough any more.
Especially with the prices that these mega-romplers are selling for.

All IMHO, obviously.
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ozy · Guest

In a nutshell, because they "sample and replay" what happened when a certain note was played at a certain moment with a certain duìynamic after a certain other note. That's it

On a better instrument, what happens when I play C5 depends on what happened before and what will happen after. Did I jump an octave? did I trill? Did I blow hard while trilling?

Sound changes dramatically when these parameters change.

The same c5 becomes very different when played in different circumstances.

It doesn't on a rompler.

That makes a rompler a very stiff and unexpressive instrument, when compared to an acoustic instrument.

This is no small deal.

Expression means a lot in music.

jimknopf · Platinum Member Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 3374

I don't think ROMplers are frowned upon, especially as we don't talk of the old ROMpler concept here any more, but of modern, advanced forms, which are very capable in providing and shaping sounds. All fine with that.

I think justified criticism does not concern the pure fact, that advanced ROMplers do exist and do a great job, but it concerns the "monoculture" that has shaped the recent workstation generations. The legitimate question is, why reduce sound shaping to sample based concepts, if the irreplacable strengths of other concepts are well in reach. Why not use different forms of synthesis and soundshaping within one workstation?

That's the inner logic of the Oasys and the Kronos, and it's flexibility makes it superior to any pure sample-based concept, adding other well sounding forms of synthesis like VA, FM and mixtures of sampling and modelling to the workstation concept.

I don't frown upon advanced ROMplers, I'm just happy to have the other forms of synthesis available in the same device. Smile

X-Trade · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:21 pm Post subject:

Strictly speaking a ROMpler is a keyboard which you can't load your own samples on and only uses internal samples. That is a bit annoying because you are stuck with the same basic palette and even if you can program well you won't always get as variable or expressive results as you might get.

On the other hand sampling in general is only a 'computationally efficient' means to an end. The best results in the future when processing power is even cheaper (and is beginning to happen now) will be from modelling the actual mathematical models of the physics of a real instrument, giving a full range of expression.

The same goes for synthesizer sounds. If you are just playing back samples, you either need a stupid amount of samples or you need some clever manipulation or resynthesis of samples to produce a truly expressive patch. because a modelled engine uses mathematical parameters then you can link any of those to a performance in ways which would require you to be constantly selecting different samples otherwise.
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EXer · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject:

Because
¤ romplers drive over speed limit
¤ romplers steal your money
¤ romplers attack old ladies
¤ romplers rape your wives
¤ romplers kill babies
¤ romplers are sample based tone generators; samples are instant pictures a sound; romplers offer a very limited control over the timbral evolution of a sound over time.

cello · Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:29 pm Post subject:

peter_schwartz · Full Member Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Posts: 206

So much of the music we hear today is created using romplers and/or samples that this "perception" that romplers are something to be frowned upon is utterly meaningless. That is, unless you're a critic of what you hear in music today, in which case you'd have every right to criticize not only samplers/romplers but the entire state of affairs of pop music. Even rock, with its frequently-replaced-with-samples drum sounds.

I'm sure there are "purists" out there who would say that any note which, when it's repeated, is an exact clone of the previously-heard sound is somehow 'inferior' to sounds produced on (say) synthesizers with free-running oscillators. But that would be just as much bullshit commentary as saying that romplers are somehow inferior because the sounds they make are so repeatable.

And if someone really objects to hearing the same sound exactly twice -- let's say, guitar -- then hire a guitarist. Drums sound machine-gunny? Hire a drummer! Repeated string notes sound too stiff? Hire a real violinist and have them sweeten your tracks to give it more of a live feel. In short, it makes no sense to blame the technology (or cast aspersions on it) because there is no promise offered in any musical technology that you're going to be able to achieve all of the nuance of expression that you'd get with real players.

That said, romplers WILL pocket your fine silver and pilfer through your medicine cabinet if you don't keep a watchful eye on them at all times Laughing

BasariStudios · Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:37 am Post subject:

All i know is that my grandfather (RIP) was one of the old school Masons
(i mean as a construction worker not in the Secret Society) and he always said:
A BAD MASON ALWAYS BLAMES HIS LEVEL, HAMMER AND STRING LINE.
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jemkeys25 · Full Member Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 243

a rompler is like a painting thats already been paited, you try to change lt with light and distance, but its the same painting, a pure synth is like a blank canvas.
romplers aren't a bad thing, they come in very handy for naturally occuring sounds and instruments, pianos, horns, drums, ect.., but i also enjoy being able to create my own sounds from scratch.

did you ever hear, say, dx sounds on a rompler, please, they dont even come close to the real dx7 in the depth of feel you get from the real thing.

now kronos is part rompler, and thats ok, because it has so many other synth options, i'll deal with the rompler knowing i can combine it with so many other synth engines, and do it all in one board.

Citizen Klaus · Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:47 am Post subject:

peter_schwartz · Full Member Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Posts: 206

Some perspectives...

Any keyboard instrument or plugin that plays back samples is a "sample playback device". The distinction that one might be a sampler and the other a rompler are mere technicalities. A sample is a sample, regardless of the electronic domain in which its data is played from (i.e., ROM or RAM). And the amount of nuance you get from playing back those samples all depends on the degree to which the filter, amp, envelopes, and so on are programmed "around" that sample. And of course, if a sound is multi-sampled, you'll have that much more nuance by way of switching samples on top of any programmed velocity (or other) control.

The one thing about romplers (including Kronos/Oasys/Motif/Kurzweil etc.) is that their sounds are indeed programmed to have some kind of velocity response that will:

• switch between multi-samples
• crossfade between multi-samples
• adjust the volume and/or filter cutoff directly
• adjustment the attack of EG's that affect the temporal (e.g. over time) excursions of the filter cutoff or the amp volume
• all of the above

...and the semi-random (albeit controlled) nature of one's playing kinda sorta ensures that no note sound exactly the same when repeatedly played. Now, if your touch (velocity) is extremely consistent and you play the same note over and over again, you'll get the machine gun effect. No doubt about it. That is, unless a sound is programmed with some kind of round-robin technique or other random/semi-random behavior that's independent of the velocity you play with, you'll get the machine-gun effect with extremely consistent playing while repeating the same notes.

By contrast, an analog synth with free-running oscillators simply never sounds the same twice on any given note, save for the one in a million chance that the waveforms being generated by the oscillators were in exactly the same phase when you hit the same note repeatedly. But then again, you can't get an analog synth to emulate all of the sounds that we routinely rely on romplers to provide for us.

And then there's another situation, where a synth sound has been sampled. And sometimes sampled synths (whether analog or digital) will have their own special vibe, especially when the sample is made to stretch (usually) below the root pitch. But part of the vibe can also comes from the consistency of the attacks.

Citizen Klaus · Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 6:43 am Post subject:

peter_schwartz · Full Member Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Posts: 206

True (to an extent), but the context of what I wrote was that when you're playing back samples, it doesn't matter whether they're being read out of RAM or ROM. A sample is a sample.

Akos Janca · Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:48 am Post subject:

I absolutely agree with many opinions and clarifications above.

But Kronos as a rompler? In fact there is no ROM in Kronos.

If I had to choose between the two terms only, I would call Kronos a true sampler instead of rompler because the Programs can be freely modified replacing the factory samples with any other including your own.

Considering the flexibility of OASYS/Kronos I think there is no single word to accurately describe these fantastic instruments. The closest is "synthesizer" or "workstation". But you will always have to add a longer explanation after saying that.

These are unique, state-of-the-art creations.
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