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Kronos vs Kurzweil PC3K88
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JPWC
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Joined: 29 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my PC361. But, learn to program it; well it's a bear.

I think you need to think over your applications first.

PC361 does not have karma, my main band when playing solo or doing recording. But, the PC3 has a great sound set and works fine in a full live band and I commonly use the PC361 for single sounds (one timbre) when recording. It's never been my goto keyboard for live performance, my last band gig I used the Fantom G7 & the M3.

If you want to experiment with sounds buy a Gaia or Radias or Nord or other. (this way you could save some of your monies for the Kronos, when it becomes available)

I guess it also depends on your genre of music.

I think PC3 and then the Motif XF have a good rock and roll sound. (work's great with other band members)

While the M3 (Kronos?) is more modern sounding. (like the difference between an old 24" CRT TV and a 55" plasma screen (maybe with 3D), they'll both work, if the movie is good, but the flatscreen just look's better.) Korg samples, are simply more "exciting".

That Roland sound is somewhere in-between.

What ever you do, remember, you've been bitten by the Kronos bug, and you'll always want one.
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aron
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> That PC3K8 is starting to look real good right about now

Depends on if you can get it fixed. Service first, for a keyboard like that. I am still waiting after dealing with painful problems for the last few months.

I'm getting both back in the next few days and I will be able to compare.

The PC3 is a very good sounding keyboard, but it doesn't dazzle with fidelity like a Motif at all. It's an understated sound, some of which is really good. The polyphony algorithm is the best - until I test against the Kronos.

Service for me is almost non-existant and there are flaws in the build that go way beyond the Kronos data wheel problem. Those channels that hold the transformer in are a terrible idea that will go and bite anyone that travels with the instrument.
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Vlad_77
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have both the PC3x and a Kronos 61. BOTH are astonishingly powerful instruments and BOTH offer the deepest synthesis as far as the Big Four go.

Someone posted that the PC3 series is merely a rehash of the K2600. All due respect but you are dead wrong. Let's see:

PC3 series programs: 32 layers. K2600: 3 layers

PC3: The VA-1 is a phenomenally powerful VA especially with Dynamic V.A.S.T. The K2600 has no VA.

PC3: 18 independently latching and fully programmable arpeggiators. K2600: ONE arpeggiator

PC3: 128 voice polyphony K2600: 48 voice polyphony

PC3: Cascade mode which allows you to route any patches DSP into any other patches - an EXTREMELY powerful feature. K2600: non-existent

PC3: 128 different DSP algorithms AND the ability to create your own - a much more "vast" V.A.S.T. K2600: 60 DSP algorithms and no way to create your own

Kurzweils are used by such little known artists as Paul McCartney, Elton John, Stevie Wonder, Jordan Rudess, Richard Wright (R.I.P) and I would think that these guys know a little about keyboards.

The thing about Kurzweil is that people talk about the ROM set which IS miniscule compared to everything else out there. But, with Dynamic V.A.S.T. it is what you DO with that ROM set that makes up for the lack of huge ROM sets. I made a very thick, fat sawtooth Oberheim Matrix 12 patch using ... a CP-70 keymap! Yes, the learning curve is steep, but to state flatly that this instrument is a mere rehash and even an anachronism is like stating a piano is an anachronism. Do we really think that the 18th century pianoforte is an anachronism?

The Kronos is immensely powerful as well. In addition - and again I remind you that I own both - the Kronos has a much more intuitive user interface. The combination of the power of these two is simply staggering.

To the OP: I would caution you that if you want to be able to do your OWN samples, you cannot on the PC3K. Its main feature in that area is K-series legacy which is not a bad thing at all. If you need sampling and you want a powerful instrument that has a kinder learning curve, hold off and get Kronos. Besides, you will see the PC3 series continue to drop in price and you will be able to get it later.

For the OP it seems to be a question of patience and I understand that. I ALMOST bought a Yamaha XF. I am glad I was patient. If you are SERIOUSLY GASing and cannot wait, then yes, the PC3K is the only other viable option in terms of synthesis power. Roland and Yamaha - especially Yamaha are the rehashers if such a label exists.

Whichever way you decide, you are going to have a killer instrument that will open breathtaking sonic vistas for you.

Important: Do NOT get one of the "LE" boards. They are not programmable except for a few simple parameters.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slight corrections...

Vlad_77 wrote:
PC3 series programs: 32 layers. K2600: 3 layers


You could have more layers on K2600, too - they'd just take more polyphony. The thing is that in K2600 you can CASCADE up to 3 layers in one chain. On PC3, this is raised to 32 layers.

Vlad_77 wrote:
PC3: The VA-1 is a phenomenally powerful VA especially with Dynamic V.A.S.T. The K2600 has no VA.


K2000, K2500, K2600 DID have DSP-generated VA waveforms (SAW+, SIN+, etc.), alas, with aliasing. VA1 is the same thing but it uses more DSP blocks, except it utilizes band-limiting to get rid of most aliasing except in the most extreme cases.

Vlad_77 wrote:
PC3: 18 independently latching and fully programmable arpeggiators. K2600: ONE arpeggiator


That's 16 arpeggiators - one per zone in the setup.

Vlad_77 wrote:
PC3: Cascade mode which allows you to route any patches DSP into any other patches - an EXTREMELY powerful feature. K2600: non-existent


Not true. K2600 had Triple Mode modular processing, which is in fact cascading on PC3 - true, not as flexible as on PC3, but it was possible. It's definitely not non-existent.

Vlad_77 wrote:
Important: Do NOT get one of the "LE" boards. They are not programmable except for a few simple parameters.


They are editable via SoundTower editor (bought separately).
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operaman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For normal musicians this tech talk translates into the PC3 is very cool.

People like Evil Dragon make my life SO much easier. If you have a chance and have a PC3 go to Mastering VAST forums and download some of the sounds he and others have programmed.

I am hoping the same for the Kronos, because.I am a composer first. Sound design is not my thing. With see two keyboards in tandem I have a full sonic palette.
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GiantSonicRobot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vlad_77 wrote:
...but to state flatly that this instrument is a mere rehash and even an anachronism is like stating a piano is an anachronism. Do we really think that the 18th century pianoforte is an anachronism?


Very well put. I have to remember that Exclamation
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vEddY
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rocness wrote:
That PC3K8 is starting to look real good right about now . Wink

It doesn't "start to look real good", it really is good Smile best of K, for a price that's not over the top, while giving an awful lot in terms of tone and sounds. With all the latest PC3K8 developments, it's a best buy keyboard.
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PinkFloydDudi
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used both. I would certainly not go so far as to say that the Kurz PC3 is a bad board by any means. There is a lot of power in terms of sound generation.

VAST is a huge pain. HUGE pain.

I have not gotten to use either board in-depth for extended periods of time. However my thoughts on the two is that KRONOS beats the kurz hands down. With that being said, I would put the Kurz board above pretty much any other keyboard/workstation out there for its price range (aka: not including the Oasys).

The sounds on the PC3 are absolutely fantastic, and the possibilities are endless. But sometimes, endless is too much (for me at least).

Lets put it this way - it might take you until the Kronos delivery date to understand VAST programming anyway!! =P
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There isn't really a single complicated thing about VAST, as far as I see it. You have oscillators, filters, signal processors of different kinds, LFOs, envelopes, and all that. The only thing that makes it stand out is that you can wire the stuff however YOU want - it's not a fixed structure. Like a giant digital modular system Smile That's not to say that you cannot have a "fixed" structure - there's a number of prefab algorithms and all you have to do is "fill in the blanks". Every parameter gets two modulation inputs - that's great. FUNs add more fun in the whole thing.

It's really nothing hard to understand. It may not be as immediate as tweaking a Virus or Nord Lead, for example, but when you come to terms with it, it's just as you say - a virtually endless machine with gobs of inspiration lurking inside.
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theshinenz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with pinkfloyd a bit, I find the kurz great for simple setups with midi, mute zones etc, it's amazing. However for editing sounds I findnit a pain in the ass to program, when you want to edit a program with 32 layers is frickn tedious. It's really for people who want to dig deep into synthesis IMO OR people who are happy with just presets, not so much for the people in between somewhere. I will miss my pc3 though whennmy Kronos turns up but Kronos will be more intuitive like the m3 I think.
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Barbenzinc
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there,
A long time since i posted here... Wink

Because the subject is a about Kronos / PC3K i thought maybe it would be useful to make you listen to some of different sounds on the PC3.
We have a lot of sounds/demos coming from the Kronos on YouTube and not so much for the PC3 that's why i put these links :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09m7NYMCLk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8a9FZM3lhw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IbArtRm2Iw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KlnBbkr-JA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hny7gzHXmuY&feature=related

PS : Yes, these are commercial soundbanks but please trust me when i say i am NOT promoting these soundsets, just the synth engine of the PC3 !
(and it would be dumb to promote some kurzweil sounds on a Korg forum LOL !)

The main goal of this post is to make you listen to something a bit different of the synthsounds presets.
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Mystic38
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1

jemkeys25 wrote:
kurzweil does it by whats called V.A.S.T., the best and deepest sound controlling and editing in the business, no one else even comes close.


to the others, sorry to say but quoting size of rom is like flopping it out on the kitchen table....pointless... its not what you've got, its how you use it and VAST is the best synth engine/architecture by far.
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aron
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the people that can really use and understand VAST are an extremely small minority of people. The people that understand and can use will love it and probably want to synthesize a large portion of their music.

The compiler and the computer are so powerful, but sometimes I just want to use an easy to use interface and just get to work quickly. For me VAST is not even close to this ideal.

The people that love Kurzweil really love the product. I wish they would buy my keyboard off of me - it's the most unreliable keyboard I have ever used.

Contrary to what people say, it's not the best sounding keyboard and the piano sounds old and outdated. The only people that seem to rave about the piano are the owners themselves. The sound set is pretty terrific considering how old the ROMs are.

I still say, make sure you can repair the keyboard near you. It's useless when it cannot be repaired and I have seen enough inside to know that there are problems that can occur if you want to travel with it.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fans of VAST may also enjoy the MOD-7.

There are a lot of cool people on Sonikmatter - some of them now in this thread on the Korg forums! - and I've had some good discussions with them over the years. One of them, several years ago, was related to this topic; I've quoted it below. Most of VAST's functions are filters, amp and panning, ring modulation, and nonlinearity and distortion (like waveshaping). All of those functions are also covered by the MOD-7. VAST does do a few things that the MOD-7 does not, such as comb filtering; on the other hand, the MOD-7 has unique tricks up its sleeve, as well. One of them is simply horsepower, as shown in the following quote:

http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37208&pid=222379&mode=threaded&start=#entry222379

Quote:

Quote:
(Dave Weiser @ Sep 20 2007, 11:49 AM)
Dynamic VAST:

I've already posted about the flexible wiring system - you can create and store your own algs. You'll get 4 "boxes" worth of DSP, each with its own assignable parameters. (Slightly more than the 2 +1 boxes on a K26) You can have 2 2-poles, or a killer 4-pole, or any other combination, on each layer. You can decide how many inputs and outputs each box has and you can select parallel or serial configuration.

And remember, you get 32 layers per program, each with its own mods, envelopes, ASRs, LFOs, FUNs, etc. If the other guys tried this, their machines would catch fire.


The PC3 sounds like it will be a big upgrade over the K2600 on this score. Very cool!

Since you brought up "the other guys," I thought I'd look into this from the perspective of the MOD-7, which you commented on in another thread.

Each VPM oscillator in the MOD-7 includes a sine oscillator with FM inputs and feedback, a waveshaper with selectable tables and variable drive and offset, simple lowpass and highpass filers, ring modulation, and gain (plus lots of modulation). They can both generate signal, and process it from elsewhere; the oscillator can be disabled if you only want waveshaping and/or ring mod. Translating this roughly into the K2xxx world, using the SAW+ -> SHAPER trick for FM and the 2PARAM SHAPER to approximate the flexibility of the tables, this comes out to something like:

SAW+ -> SHAPER -> LOPASS -> 2PARAM SHAPER (double block) -> HIPASS -> x AMP

So, that's 7 VAST blocks per VPM oscillator. The MOD-7 has 6 VPM oscillators, for a total of 42 VAST blocks.

MOD-7 has both a PCM oscillator and a noise generator, available simultaneously. The noise generator has saturation and a dedicated lowpass filter, something like NOISE+ -> DIST -> LOPASS, for 3 VAST blocks.

There are also two multimode (LP/HP/BP/Notch) resonant filters, which can optionally be combined into a single four-pole multimode resonant filter. This is either 3 or 4 VAST blocks: 3 for four-pole, or 4 for dual 2-pole.

There are three 2-input mixers, with modulatable gain for each input: call it +GAIN, for 3 blocks.

All of the above are freely patchable, in any order or combination, via cables on the patch panel.

The main output mixer has 6 modulatable inputs, each with modulatable pan. I'll leave out the gain aspect; let's call that 6 PANNER blocks.

There are other audio functions elsewhere, such as final amp and pan control, EQ, and so on. I'll leave those out for now. There are also 10 envelopes, 9 key tracking generators, 8 AMS Mixers (similar to FUNs), 4 per-voice LFOs, and a per-voice step sequencer (plus per-Program "common" LFO and Step Sequencer).

Total VAST blocks to approximate the MOD-7: 42 + 3 + (3 or 4) + 3 + 6 = 57 or 58, depending on filter structure. It sounds like the PC3 could do this by combining 15 layers together, each doing 4 blocks, in the new expanded Triple Modular-style architecture. The PC3's base polyphony is 128 voices, so this means the polyphony goes down to 128/15, or about 8 and a half voices.

Normal polyphony of the OASYS MOD-7: 52 voices. That may go down a bit if *all* functions are in use. You can also load two MOD-7s together in a single Program, which will cut polyphony in half of course.

As I've said before, I think Kurzweil makes neat synths. I'm sure that the PC3 will be a great addition to their line, and I look forward to seeing it and hearing it (and hopefully meeting Dave in person at NAMM!).

- Dan

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jemkeys25
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love kurzweil boards, been using them since 1988,k1000,k2000, and k2661, remember, it's still only about generating sounds, interfaces aside, and both boards do that quite well, but i also am very fond of the kronos, and only made my rig that much more powerful.
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