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drama1
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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operaman
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Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 100
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 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well I got a Kurzweil PC3X, an Alesis Fusion 8HD, AND now a Kronos 61. I am set, and each workstation has its place.
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Korg Kronos 61::Kurzweil PC3X::Alesis Fusion 8HD::Korg Microstation::DSI Prophet 08:::Korg Polysix::2X Oberheim Matrix 1000 |
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synthguy
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | There isn't really a single complicated thing about VAST, as far as I see it. |
Only you could say that. 
On the basics, yes, VAST is a remotely straightforward architecture, with OSCs and Filters, AMPs and Envs. That is, until you start dragging in the arcane functions like the DIST and WRAP blocks, which do all kinds of things to the waveforms, that the manual explains rather poorly. And then there are the FUNs, or Function Blocks, which process things like controllers and which the PC3 manual explains ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about. In order to do something like control a Leslie speed with a controller, you have to use a FUN, and on a non-organ patch, getting it to work requires a saint's patience and most likely help from the Kurzweil boards. On sonikmatter.com, there are some helpful people like Evil here who will come along usually within a day of a post. But half the time you get a snappy RTFM!, and it can be a while before you see anything else, which is part of the reason I don't habit the place all that much these days.
The other reason is that my PC3 is being a pain. For one thing, the keyboard refuses to respond to velocity very well. There's some sort of velocity ceiling around 100 on the MIDI scale which you have to beat the tar out of to get past, and no combination of scales and keyboard maps makes it any easier, it just makes it harder to control soft playing. If that wasn't bad enough, my ribbon controller is bad, and I still have to ship the darn thing back.
The other is the obtuseness of VAST, which I do like. But I bought the PC3 with the intent to not just use it as a VA/rompler like my M3, but as a sound machine, creating textures which only the Kronos could hope to sound like. And that means using the arcane and barely explained DSP Blocks, and the not-explained-at-all FUNs. And with something with the depth of VAST, you need a friendly board with lively discussions going on. sonikmatter is a bit too hostile, and Mastering VAST is a bit too quiet. I floundered around for a few weeks, making all of three or four good patches, the rest a bunch of meh industrial noises. And his was AFTER buying Barbenzic's excellent sounds to use to learn programming from another source, but unfortunately, they weren't as instructive as I hoped. The Kurzweil site itself has a few videos, but they're very much an overview, go over details much too quickly and don't dwell on the things that make the Kurzes such potent workstations like the DSP Blocks and FUNs. And at times, the editor showed the guy poking at the PC3 panel off camera much too long, so whatever the heck he was doing has to be guessed at later. Brilliant there, Kurzweil...
And on top of all that, the thing has some of the most DREADFUL heavy handed compression in some of the samples I've ever heard, and the master compressor used in some odd patches, making the whole instrument sound squashed and less dynamic than any other synth I've ever played. Maybe if the keyboard worked right, it would be different, but play some raw samples with sustaining envelopes, like the Triple Strike Piano and you'll see what I mean.
It does sound really good, if polite because I can't really get the pianos to bark because of the velocity/compression issue, but outside of the pianos, I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of presets. I ended up going back to my M3, and even though the reverbs are way better on the PC3, I fell in love with the KORG sound all over again and have been having a blast creating patches and playing again. I'm loathe to send the Kurz back because it does sound fantastic and is about as deep as the Kronos, but... I'm afraid it's mostly going to be used as a controller with that big ribbon, and just three or four sounds of my own in it, the rest done on Kronos.
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:54 am Post subject: |
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synthguy - get that K2661 manual right now! It has detailed descriptions on what each DSP function and FUNs are doing. It helps tremendously. I'm also wondering why Kurzweil didn't include those helpful graphs and descriptions in PC3 manual. Guess they thought "well, the PDF for K2661 is freely available and it's all there", or something like that. I do agree that this info should've been in PC3's user guide. Too bad they didn't do it. However, the information is there, it's available. So please, do yourself a favor and get that manual - a lot of stuff will be a lot clearer afterwards!
FUNs are real easy to comprehend what they do - if you've had any connection with Waldorfs, it's the same as their Modifier matrix, except it's even more comprehensive on a Kurzweil. They just offer so much and you can use them in gazillion ways to do weird stuff to whatever you want.
Sorry to hear about your keybed issue. I seem to get pretty good response with velocity curve set to Hard1. However, I do have a firm stroke, having learned proper piano since I was 6. I do feel a slight lack of precision in ff-fff area, though. It's not a perfect keybed, but it's darn fine. I wish all manufacturers would allow CUSTOM VELOCITY CURVES! |
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synthguy
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | do yourself a favor and get that manual - a lot of stuff will be a lot clearer afterwards! |
Actually, I did it the day Poser P mentioned it on the boards there. Aaand... it's only a little more helpful.
And I know the basics of most of these DSP Blocks, having owned a fully loaded K2000 and Rack for more than a decade. But this is an area of synthesis kind of like Yamaha's FM: the manual explains it fairly well. BUT. I know what WRAP does in theory, but getting anything musically useful out of it is a total crap shoot.
As I say, I really appreciate the VAST engine and have talked it up here on these boards plenty. But someone really needs a comprehensive tutorial, or to go through the, dare I say it, vast library of patches made for the previous K synths and convert them for the PC3s. If someone made a series of patches using the DIST plus SHAPE Blocks which ran from smooth and pad-like to biting and growly, but still being generally musical, that would sure be a godsend for me because that waveshaping stuff is rocket science that not many people know what to do with. And obviously, I'm still coming to grips with, after a small hiatus...
| Quote: | | FUNs are real easy to comprehend what they do - if you've had any connection with Waldorfs, it's the same as their Modifier matrix, except it's even more comprehensive on a Kurzweil. They just offer so much and you can use them in gazillion ways to do weird stuff to whatever you want. |
Yeah, I'm up on FUNs too, generally speaking. I know these are mod matrices on steroids - or drugs. I like them too, until they refuse to work in ways I expect them to. I downloaded the Visual FUN app at Mastering VAST, and when I get back around to Kurzweiling again, I'll probably take it for a spin dry.
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:42 am Post subject: |
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The piano on the Kronos is amazing. The HD-1 piano is much more dynamic and big sounding than the compressed versions in the PC361.
The pads are so beautiful and full, the type I have never heard on my Kurzweil. Just clear, crystal clear with smooth reverb tails too.
The EP's are going to be close - I will check it out when I get my PC361 back from repair.
So far the MS-20 and Polysix absolutely kill the similar VA sounds on my PC361 - I mean, no comparison. The MS-20 sounds alive!!!!
I believe the Kurzweil still might have the upper hand for orchestral stuff.
I like the Kronos organ a little better than the PC361 - which is plenty good for me anyway.
The touch display is very easy to use. Maybe because I use my iPad so much.
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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Rocness
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Wow that was lovely just lovely . There's something special about that board.
I can't quite put my finger on it but it's there.
I went and read up on the creator of this company Ray Kurzweil after watching this video and found out he is actually like a genus or something like that . He has books and documentaries about him .
I think he is actually credited with making the 1st digital synth piano from a bet he made with Stevie Wonder on if he could create the sound of a grand piano on portable board or something like that and that's how the 1st Kurzweil keyboard was born .
very interesting I'm definitely going to research more on this guy . |
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