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General Midi Files... GM Section
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Kontrol49
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say Tomayto I say Tomarto


Wink
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kontrol49 wrote:


irrespective of how many banks there are already as stock in the machine,the Oasys has to sacrifice several banks dependant on the Engine you have inside it, you can switch those engines off in the demo mode so they are not taking up bank locations,


I'm not sure that I understand the above.

* EXi do not use *any* Program banks intrinsically
* Whether or not an EXi is authorized has no effect on Program bank usage
* Programs in any bank other than GM can be erased, re-written, used for other purposes etc., without restriction as to which EXi are installed or authorized

Kontrol49 wrote:

so having the option to do this with GM sounds would be very useful indeed.I'm sure there will be kronos owners who never use the GM sounds too..


As previously noted, if they use the factory Combis, they'll be using the GM sounds.

Hope this helps,

Dan
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yatrix wrote:
While making my librarian software I found out that theoretically it is possible to replace these banks with normal ones. But practically even not tried do experiment on it because:
a) Don't to know for sure if length of GM program is the same as for normal program
b) Not sure if GM banks are located in rewritable memory.

If someone manage to get clear answer from Korg on these two question...otherwise there is a big risk to destroy device.


Anyone working on software for the OASYS or KRONOS are welcome to contact Korg directly. Me, for instance. Smile dan@korgrd.com

- Dan
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EXer
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[edit] post suppressed

Last edited by EXer on Fri May 27, 2011 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gargamel314 wrote:
The only difference is the program structure. These are programs that use one velocity layer, and pretty simple envelopes. This allows them to be a little more versatile to suite any GM sequence, because they react to MIDI events just like the GM programs of any other GM synth, so the sequence sounds pretty much like it was intended. But they do use regular ROM multisamples.


The KRONOS (and OASYS) GM bank uses the HD-1, including its complex envelopes and other features; it's essentially another bank of HD-1 sounds. Some of the KRONOS GM sounds use just one velocity layer, but others use velocity switches and crossfades, layers of two Oscillators, etc., as you'd expect from the HD-1.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randelph wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
A number of the GM Programs are used in the factory Combis. It's true that most of the GM Programs are on the simple side, but sometimes that's what's called for.


Does that mean that there's no absolute distinction for GM programs in the Kronos? That they're NOT pathetically small sample sizes with a correspondingly thin/cheezy sound quality, but are of the same quality (sample size and programming) as any other sound, they just happen to conform to GM specs?


Yes, exactly.

- Dan
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Gargamel314
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
Randelph wrote:
danatkorg wrote:
A number of the GM Programs are used in the factory Combis. It's true that most of the GM Programs are on the simple side, but sometimes that's what's called for.


Does that mean that there's no absolute distinction for GM programs in the Kronos? That they're NOT pathetically small sample sizes with a correspondingly thin/cheezy sound quality, but are of the same quality (sample size and programming) as any other sound, they just happen to conform to GM specs?


Yes, exactly.

- Dan


hmmm... if that's true, then i take back the majority of what i said. My mistake and apologies for basing my argument on my knowledge of the M3. I assumed it was more or less the same bank of GM sounds. But i still say it would be nice to have some control over that bank.
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jahrome
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you guys need a "Least Favorite" checkbox. Which gives you the option to hide all the GM programs. Laughing

The workaround would be to mark all patches as favorites with the exception of the GM programs in order not to show them. Razz
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Quote:
Overall, there are not enough program slots on OASYS/Kronos given the number of synthesizer engines and EXs's.

I can personally vouch for this having integrated my OASYS into my setup across many projects. Despite a massive time investment in organising my OASYS, it remains a challenge to keep things in order on rapid pace, complex jobs. It's doable, but it's tricky. The problems include accidently wiping programs (when working to tight deadlines) and being slowed down by lack of such flexibility that plugins offer in this regard (and it's DAW environments and plugin flexibility that set the pace).

But we should probably wait for the DAW software before making a final judgement or making calls for an upgrade to house more programs on board - any included librarian might do the trick.

I feel Korg needs to go the path of NI or Spectrasonics and offer an abstracted solution where programs are managed essentially on a layer above the associated synth engines and in a sophisticated archive.

Kevin.


Yes indeed, the bigger question is why there's only 1 free bank of Program slots. Is that kind of memory expensive? Is that the max. number of buttons, both in hardware and software, that Korg wants to implement before using a multiplying system or some other kind of organizational architecture (like Kevin was saying). Or?

The Kronos is making a good case for going the hardware route, but when confronted with the hassles of organizing a great number of files with extremely limited open slots, the software approach has a renewed allure. It was patch organization and sample management workarounds (primarily) that eventually got me to HATE the Motif XS and swear it off.

Dan did say though that the new Editor for the Kronos will have Librarian functions as well. So I'm guessing that the Korg engineers knew very well about this lack, but are compensating for it by including a librarian.

Personally, I'd rather not be swapping out entire banks of Programs/Combis. I don't remember what exactly is in each swap-out (who can, unless it's super project specific), and of course what's swapped out is not available.

I'd much rather work in an unified environment within the keyboard that assumed, OK, 80% of the time, 80% of the users will need no more than "x" number of open banks (in order to stay working within the board).

I would guess that to be around 4-6 banks of open slots for the Programs, maybe 1/2 or 1/3 that number for Combis. Unless that memory is ridiculously expensive, I don't know why this continues to be such an under-designed part of a board that is so super advanced when there's clearly a strong demand and need for a more elegant solution than having to constantly swap out banks of Programs and Combis.

OR

Keep it the way it is now, but allow full editing and saving of Programs within Combis.

OR

Do a super duper job on the Librarian function and make it easy to see all the available Programs and Combis within Categories and make auditioning of all onboard and computer stored sounds within the Librarian seamlessly integrated with the board.

BUT... that's right, then there'd be another involved and complicated figuring out of how to get the numerous patches into a single bank, where that bank would be; and NOT be creating yet again another super specific bank of sounds that I'll need to keep track of and remember somehow whats in it. So scratch this one- not much of a solution.
--------------------

Being that the Kronos is already out, much of what I am talking about is not going to happen. But I'm curious as to why this glaring, obvious limitation is there in the first place, esp. with the Kronos being in DIRECT competition with the software world. There is an alternative.

A good Librarian for the Kronos can help, but is far from being a completely integrated, friendly solution. I prefer hardware 'cause I'm looking for a unified experience that doesn't require a lot of tedious bookkeeping and organizational hassles!

Randy
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EXer
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randelph wrote:
Yes indeed, the bigger question is why there's only 1 free bank of Program slots.

I really don't understand where there's an issue.

There are 7 (seven) user banks (U-A...G) besides 7 preset banks (I-A...G).

Korg have filled 6 of these 7 user banks with factory programs, in addition to the programs in the 7 preset banks. If Korg had shipped the Kronos with empty user banks, nobody would complain that 'there is only 1 free bank'. Consider the additional factory sounds that Korg have provided in the user banks as a bonus!

I repeat : you have 7 user banks to write your own programs into.

And if you don't want to lose the factory pgms they contain when the instrument is shipped, you can save them on SSD in a .pcg file and reload them whenever you want.

This is a non issue!


Last edited by EXer on Sat May 28, 2011 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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jahrome
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the presets are stored on the SSD drive as well as the DVD Rom it ships with.
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Slovenec
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been doing backing tracks for 17 years and have NEVER and will NEVER go near any GM sounds period! I've been asked to produce midi files but have always refused. General midi sounds are the pits and I also agree that it's ridiculous that a top of the line workstation with GB's of sound ROM would still dedicate a small portion of this ROM to crap sounding GM programs that sounded crap already in the 90s!

I've got VI ONE with a 21GB sound library and this software 'workstation' synth also has a pathetic sounding GM sound set that is a complete waste of ROM. The same applies for Plugsounds Pro that I also own!

A 'professional' workstation like the Kronos doesn't need it's valuable ROM being wasted by GM sounds! Leave that to the PS60 and Microstation etc.

Rant over! Smile Smile
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Mystic38
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't you see a dead horse when you trip over it?
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Gargamel314
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jahrome wrote:
All the presets are stored on the SSD drive as well as the DVD Rom it ships with.


I do realize this, but it doesn't help with keeping combis in working order. Having to remember what's in each PCG can be messy. But yeah, pretty sure anyone who wants to load in any extra PCG files will have to go this route. The Kronos is what it is, and I'm happy that it's brimming with too much extra content than not enough. And I'm glad we have control over what TYPE each bank is ... EXi or HD-1. That makes things a little easier.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EXer wrote:
Randelph wrote:
Yes indeed, the bigger question is why there's only 1 free bank of Program slots.

I really don't understand where there's an issue.

There are 7 (seven) user banks (U-A...G) besides 7 preset banks (I-A...G).

Korg have filled 6 of these 7 user banks with factory programs, in addition to the programs in the 7 preset banks. If Korg had shipped the Kronos with empty user banks, nobody would complain that 'there is only 1 free bank'. Consider the additional factory sounds that Korg have provided in the user banks as a bonus!

I repeat : you have 7 user banks to write your own programs into.

And if you don't want to lose the factory pgms they contain when the instrument is shipped, you can save them on SSD in a .pcg file and reload them whenever you want.

This is a non issue!


EXer - perhaps you do simpler jobs and run a static, nonchanging configuration meaning that 7 banks is enough for you? But as flagged above - in real world, rapid pace scenarios where many changes are necessary through a job, there is a significant and real issue.

I have put real thought into this due to my experiences - I have significantly configured my OASYS user banks and put in place a capable HD archival system ( see http://www.knect.ie/OASYS_Info.html for details). But I can assure you that even with such a robust system, when making rapid demands where you have dozens of versions of a song and are making many edits to programs, a more sophisticated project management environment / work-flow is needed. Again - in fast, tricky jobs.

The best approach would be to allow for the same storage as on software plugins where folders are easly created and where there is no difference between a program 'on board' and a HD stored program. This would be more than possible on Kronos.

Finally, just wait and see how filled up Kronos will be out of the box - you will find that you do not have 7 empty banks - indeed Kronos will be even trickier than OASYS to manage because it has more EXs's and engines). I am very thorough in configuring my systems and in making backups, but still, OASYS requires more time and attention to track changes and not accidently delete programs through jobs because it is the most sophisticated hardware synth I own and I repeat - with a workstation housing a similar number of distinct synthesizer engines as Spectrasonics or NI Komplete, using it and tracking your work over the long term will be very tricky indeed.

There is indeed an issue (unless as said you are simply going to leave it static and non changing which to me is a contradiction to owning such a deeply configurable instrument / environment). As I've said on many other threads - this is unlike any synthesizer or workstation you have ever come across before. It is very special and very deep and needs far more earnest storage capabilities.

Kevin.
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