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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dan

I don't want to be too critical because there are indeed lots of program slots and the availability of the Kronos HD and a pretty robust operating system all contribute to a quite sophisticated system.

But I am being genuine in indicating that for several jobs on I have used my OASYS on, managing programs, combis and songs was tricky.

let me express it this way - given the wholly outstanding package that Kronos represents - a myriad of synth engines to rival an entire NI or Arturia suite - I believe that Korg would win over many new fans if there was greater sophistication in the Kronos' resources access, archival and so on. I know that with one engineer I worked with on my OASYS who is squarely a DAW/ Protools person, she became increasingly frustrated with the length of time it was taking me to manage the OASYS in the particular job we were doing. Indeed she abandoned AL-1 in favor of the in build Protools Virus because of this. It's a genuine time and management issue - and again I'll qualify - for fast pace, cut throat media type jobs where time really is money. If Korg want Kronos to be liked by such a cohort of users, I believe thy should look to move the likes of the vast Kronos under the hood resource in this direction. You've done it with the Legacy software collection after all.

I realize that Kronos in particular is not set up this way and provides on board program slots, but I'd love to see Korg unleash it's full arsenal of Kronos technologies by decoupling programs and combi's from 'program banks and slots', have the whole thing on the SDD and link combi channels to actual programs so that no longer doe we have to worry that if we save new programs into a slot do we destroy the associated combi. but a reorg on drumkits, wavesequences, effects presets and all of the other amazing data elements into a coherent SDD archive easily accessed ,used and managed would, IMO, hugely expand the usability of the likes of Kronos.

But on a more basic level, I persojaqlly find it frustrating to find program banks filling and then no more room to develop and save my own porgrams or load new libraries - doing too much backing up to HD as it currently stands is a bit crude and I loose track of what I was using for which job, where certain programs are and so on, over time. Hence why I invested huge time to sort it all out once and for all - but it took several hundred hours to complete!

Kevin.
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jahrome
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
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Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few questions/comments....is there a possibility to have multiple "banks" within a bank? GM is assigned to bank I-G. With each successive time I press I-G button, it pulls up the following: GM, g(1), g(2), g(3), g(4), g(5), g(6), g(7), g(Cool, g(9), and g(d). 11 banks within 1 GM bank? Could this be possible with all the banks in an OS update?
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Quote:
But on a more basic level, I personally find it frustrating to find program banks filling and then no more room to develop and save my own programs or load new libraries -

doing too much backing up to HD as it currently stands is a bit crude and I loose track of what I was using for which job, where certain programs are and so on, over time.

Hence why I invested huge time to sort it all out once and for all - but it took several hundred hours to complete!


+1
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danatkorg
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Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randelph wrote:
So my question, once again, is how difficult would that to be to implement saving Programs within a Combi in a Kronos OS update (if it's possible at all)-?


In general, I can't respond to this sort of question, sorry.

Randelph wrote:
~ for larger projects, file management becomes a big, laborious project unto itself
~ keeping track of changes made to various Programs/Combis across separate saved Projects can be a nightmare- it feels crazy making to me.


Workflows may vary. When I did the song for the Spiderwoman video, for instance, I used a bunch of different Programs (including some of my own from the LAC-1 and MOD-7 banks, natch!) and made various edits specifically for the project. That setup is saved as "spiderwoman" on disk. Any edits made to it don't affect any other projects, and vice-versa. I follow this system for any important project; a file in my DAW has a file on the OASYS (or now, KRONOS). With this method, file management is just like as it is for plug-in settings in a DAW.

Randelph wrote:
I guess the point of beating at this repeatedly is, you don't see the need for this,


I certainly haven't said that!

What I *do* think is that, given how the system works, the best approach for project-based workflow is to make good use of files on the SSD.

Hope this helps,

Dan
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Randelph
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan,
Thanks for your replies.

For me, the larger point is wanting everything, as much as possible, within a unified work environment so I don't have to guess where I put what, and do a lot of housekeeping.

Working on projects has its own set of needs. But then there's the slow methodical building up of Programs and Combis that I'm working on ongoingly, for general use beyond a project, and want access to those without having to search through swapped out sets of files.

Yes, of course, you can't say or speculate about a lot of things- I was just curious if it was more a question of how hard and expensive such a change would be, or if there was no perceived urgency to make this (somewhat) extensive change (like Programs edited and saved within Combis).

I would say that things as they are now are reasonably serviceable. But it's esp. the dedicated users, who do put in hundreds of hours editing Programs, doing sequencing projects, playing live and customizing the Combis for that-

-it's precisely those folks that are using a lot of the potential of the board that would benefit the most from this kind of change. Making the obvious (file management) as painless as possible will generate a lot of loyal users that will come to see the Kronos and other Korg boards as a viable option to software based music making.

Thanks,
Randy
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drchris
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible that there are some programs (factory) which are not utilized in any combi at all? If so, a list of such programs may be very helpful in at least one way of getting around this issue. If a particular user needed more space, and knew that deleting certain programs would not result in degradation of any of the combi's performance, those programs could be deleted.

Further, a list of the programs utilized in each combi could also be helpful as entire combis that were not desired could be removed (including their programs separately).

This may already be in the documentation, but I've missed it so far if it is.

Thanks!
Chris
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Gargamel314
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

probably the option to make your head hurt less is just to reload the factory PCG every time you want to use combis. typing that made me very sad.
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StephenKay
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting thread that I just read through quickly. If I missed something from skimming it, my apologies. Dan has already provided a number of extremely useful replies. Here are a few points of my own:

1. GM programs are full HD-1 programs. They use the same PCM that is already in the synth. The idea with GM programs is that they are programmed to fulfill the requirements of the GM soundset, so that if you were to try to play a GM sequence, it would sound and operate correctly. That doesn't mean that they all "suck". Yes, they are simple, but when you get into the sequencer and creating a combi, all programs become simpler when stripped of their effects.

2. I agree that it can be annoying to see the GM programs all listed in the program select dialogs. A number of solutions to this have been suggested internally.

3. Anyone who says "I will never go near a program in the GM bank" is selling themselves short. As Dan said (and I may be paraphrasing) "Sometimes simple is what is required." When you are creating a sequence, or a combi, you might be surprised how a GM program will oftentimes fit what you require at the moment. It's simply another set of sounds to consider.

4. As Dan has pointed out, many of the internal Combis use GM sounds, for this exact reason. The programmer was searching for a timbre to do a particular thing, perhaps layered with others, and found it in the GM Bank. There's no "stigma" to this - the program fit the required need and was used.

5. When creating KARMA-fied combis for our sound sets, or even my own sequences, I often look at GM programs when searching for the "ideal element" for a sound. A GM program, in a combi or sequence, with new effects, can sound completely different than the original.

6. GM compatibility is sort of one of those things that is "here to stay" for most synth workstations these days. It's not a negative. It may not be a positive for many. But it still has useful elements.

7. There are some sound effects programs that are buried in the g1~g9 banks that can sometimes be useful as well. While most of the sounds in the g1~g9 banks are apparent duplicates of the main GM bank, don't be fooled - there are other variations in there that can work quite well. I recently found a nice sine-lead synth in there (very basic, which is exactly what I required at the moment, and did not exist in a non-GM program.) Don't forget, even if a GM sound is poly, you can make it mono in a combi or seq, or apply hundreds of tweaks to it via Tone Adjust or the regular Timbre/Track parameters.
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Akos Janca
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once I got an audio file. I had to imitate/recreate its epiano sound originated from Kontakt. Surprisingly, the perfect solution was nothing else but an OASYS GM sound.

(I agree, they should be at the end of the lists.)
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