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Played Kronos S/N T00005 tonight
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rrricky rrrecordo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MidnightPackage wrote:
I am really hoping that Ricky just has an overactive imagination Smile


...or a tin ear Wink

try it yourself when you get a chance
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair comments Ricky - we must take them on baord - you sound like a seasoned piano player so thanks for coming back with some good points - I'll defintely take on board your review as more earnest than perhaps I gave you credit for (and as we're all more or less agreeing, we'r enot naive enough to think that Kronos pianos will be the final work in digital pianos).

I must admit - as an OASYS owner I'm particularly after the Kronos pianos as I don't otherwise own a stage piano and essentially have all the other Kronos features; so I think it would only right to go try it out and compare it to the likes of the CP1 and SV1 before throwing all that cash at something which you flag my have issues at least worth considering and investigating.

Cheers,
Kevin.
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rrricky rrrecordo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akos Janca wrote:
I think there is nothing wrong with Ricky's opinion. He doesn't like Kronos and clearly explained why. What I think (and I suppose Korg also thinks) that much more people will like the Kronos than who don't.

All these opinions - positive or negative - are subjective and don't help much to other people.

Thanks, Ricky.


Thanks, Akos. Actually I do like a lot about OASYS and Kronos - I just don't need them.

Would you mind trying my little test? Play the C below middle C at different velocities and listen carefully to each decay. Try it first with the German Grand, then the Japanese Grand, and give us your thoughts.

Thanks man, and thanks also for the wicked demo video!
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Zeroesque
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozy wrote:
Kevin is right under one important point of view - when he says "I can't play Debussy on a Oasys, but it's piano is good". "It's not right for Debussy, but it sounds good".

No matter how people [and synth producers] try to twist it,

truth is: synthesizer is a new instrument.
I can get down w/ this.

ozy wrote:
That's been true for 40 years now (since synthesists became a community, got a role, gopt their own music, weren't anymore just isolated experimentalists).

Still, people listen to a synth and ask: "will it fool people into believing it's not a synth"?

No matter how many pianos and organs you put into it, those pianos have to played as synth-pianos, organs are to be played as synth-organs, brass is to be played as synth brass even if it's modeled down to the last growl and spit and fall and glissando.

The whole "I use a synth because a real piano is too heavy or expensive" mantra is a load of BS.
Now I'm lost. What would be a real reason to you, then? And seriously, what living pro player or composer hasn't used a keyboard in the place of a piano? Should accountants not use calculators?

ozy wrote:
People who buy a synth because they can't afford a piano are sad, IMHO. And they will always be sad. They should rent a piano.
Speaking of BS, This is asinine, elitist BS. Not everyone has access to a world-class concert grand, to say the least. Moreover, modern synths provide better sound, more conveniently and for less total cost than most of the pianos I've ever played. They don't need routine expert maintenance, can be in more environments (and played at all hours), and thus can entertain more people around the world. That's a good thing. Get a clue.

ozy wrote:
A synth is an instrument. It may include EP, piano, wind and hammond patches, but it has his own way of living.

Think [on a very basic level] of the marvelous idea of playing organs on a weighted and velocity&aftertouch-sensitive keyboard: that's synthesis, not hammond-playing.
A Hammond is a synth. And no one said it's fun to tear your hands up playing rock organ licks on a digital piano, but Joey D still kicks a** on his records that use a modern clonewheel.

ozy wrote:
Whoever strives for a synthesizer whose piano is so good that "you don't feel like it's a synth"... is missing the point.
I am clearly missing the point.

ozy wrote:
So: is a computer program a BETTER INSTRUMENT than a synth (e.g. a Kronos)? Yes? No?

Really? Why? Because it fools more people? Is that the point?

That's the point.

I use synths for woodwind modeled sounds, but that's SYNTH modeled sounds. I won't ever compare them to a real sax or oboe.
You compare them as soon as you say "sax or oboe." You compare them to the real thing as soon as you hear the patch, and then play it a certain way. For example, do you sit there and bend a piano sound, playing a monophonic guitar-like lead on it? No, because it is very much a piano to you. I'm sure you approach all patches that way. I doubt you play your virtual woodwind patches as though they were something other than woodwinds. I doubt you strum them, hold the sustain pedal and add a string-dampening sound on release.

ozy wrote:
They are good on their own.

Is a kronos rhodes better than a m3 rhodes? YES it is.

is it better BECAUSE it better FOOLS people into believing it's a real rhodes? No. Or, better: who the heck cares? Maybe some studio engineer who is billing customers for real rhodes and hammonds and needs to keep costs down using a kronos. Not me.

Kronos is better than m3 because it's rich in its own way, while the m3's rhodes was POOR no matter how similar it was to the original.
What makes it so bad, then, if it were just like the original?

ozy wrote:
SO, IF SOMEBODY SAYS AN INSTRUMENT "SOUNDS BETTER" THAN ANOTHER, he can be right even if the former instrument has HALF or 1/10th the RAM or samples than the latter.

I heard yamaha's arrangers choirs: they're perfect. and they're UGLY.

That's not synthesis. That's TV. Photo. Whatever. Not synthesis.
It seems to me that part of the idea of synthesis is to approximate real objects as closely as possible. The other part is to create things that don't or can't exist. I don't understand saying one of these is inherently wrong.

I probably missed the point entirely.
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burningbusch
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:
When one puts the microscope to the actual product though, one finds "features" fairly quickly if one listens carefully and critically.

It doesn't take months, not for me at least.


Yes, with these digital pianos there are a number of things you can listen to with a critical ear:
a) loops beginning after a second or so after the sample
b) samples stretched over several notes
c) velocity/tonal jumpiness
d) too rapid decay envelope in order to mask looping
e) artificial/stepped decay envelope

You claim to have heard e). In my playing of the Kronos I did not hear it, but then again I did not play/hold every single note. Also, in nearly every official demo of the Kronos that I've heard, a low note is held so you can hear the wonderfully long decay envelope without any looping going on. Strange that they would do this if it's a problem area for the Kronos pianos. I'm at a lost to understand why an artificial envelope would be used on a long, natural decaying sample anyway (it serves no purpose).

The Yamaha CP-1 has been mentioned above a few times and as I used to own it, let me point out that it clearly suffers from problems with a), b), and d). This is a $5,000 flagship digital piano. Play chromatically in the bass and you'll hear b). Go here and click on the S6 Grand demo and listen to the last note as it decays to clearly hear a).

Many hardware digital pianos, whether in dedicated piano instruments or synths, suffer from most if not all of the above mentioned issues. The Kronos pianos are not supposed to have any of these issues. I have not heard them in my listening but will give a more detailed listen once mine arrives.

The point to all this is if you're going to "put the microscope to" the product, let's look at all the issues and compare to the field rather than an isolated one.

Quote:
There is a lot of variety in the Rhodes type presets, and many sound better than what's in my Motif XS, but my software EPs on the Macs blow them all away.


I guess I consider myself a bit of a Rhodes purist having played them for many years and owned 12 over my lifetime (still have four). I've done detailed sampling of a couple of them as well (each note, 20 velocities + release samples in one case). I wouldn't put the modeled Rhodes you mentioned (LL, EVP88, Pianoteq) anywhere close to the top in the software world. IMO, EP-1 annihilates those as far as being tonal accurate. Scarbee is clearly the best thing out there. Mr Ray 73 is a very good straight modeled Rhodes. Digidesign's Velvet is excellent and actually close in concept to EP-1, being a sample/modeled hybrid. But EP-1 is more detailed, dynamic and again, more tonally accurate. The EP modeled FXs on the EP-1 are also very good (as are the ones on the CP-1/5). No, from what I've heard so far, EP-1 is pretty special.

Busch.


Last edited by burningbusch on Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ozy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeroesque wrote:
I probably missed the point entirely.


Maybe you missed it, maybe not. I don't know. And I don't care.

The moment you start calling other people's opinions "asinine elitist BS", while the tone of the discussion was way different,

nobody cares what your point is anymore, and if there's one.

I don't, anyway.
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EXer
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozy wrote:
Kevin is right under one important point of view - when he says "I can't play Debussy on a Oasys, but it's piano is good". "It's not right for Debussy, but it sounds good".

No matter how people [and synth producers] try to twist it,

truth is: synthesizer is a new instrument.

A synthesizer like Kronos is also a digital piano, isn't it?

You can play Debussy on a 88 keys Kronos.

Of course, on a 73 keys Kronos, you can't (e.g. the lowest note in 'Pagodes' is a B 3 octaves and a 2nd lower than middle C).

That makes me say (again) that I still don't understand why a piano trained kbd player would want a weighted keys piano action type kbd with less than 88 keys
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synthguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozy wrote:
The whole "I use a synth because a real piano is too heavy or expensive" mantra is a load of BS.

Sorry, oz-man, I gotta say for a guy who pulls a lot of BS from your hind quarters, this is one of them.

If everyone could get a quality baby grand or full grand for a grand, and have an instrument you could carry under one arm and tuck in a closet, you'd have a point.

When we get to that point, make a post about it. Wink

I have to agree with the other naysayers. I made my post way too early after I got up from a sleep-shortened night, and I was wondering about Ricky's comments. And why if what he said was true, that hundreds of others, perhaps thousands, missed something obvious.

As for needing to tweak sounds, well gee, that's a news flash. Every synth I've ever owned, I've wanted to tweak the sounds. My personal playing style and critical ears aren't satisfied with a lot of patches as they are.

I haven't driven a car yet which had the seat set right for me when I first sat down. Wink No, every synth and every car isn't inadequate. You adjust things to suit you. And the Kronos, especially with SGX-1 and EP-1 are more adjustable than any workstation I'm aware of, even an OASYS.

Maybe I'm the oddball here because I didn't spend my whole life driving Ferraris or BMWs, or playing Fairlights and Synclaviers. I play and own rather pedestrian synths, if you consider Motifs, Kurzweil PC3s and KORG M3s to be pedestrian. I reserve critical remarks for when things are glaringly off, such as the Roland Fantom envelope/velocity implementation, which makes authentic piano playing quite difficult. My PC3 keyboard doesn't play hard velocities without excessive banging. I don't like the way the Motif guitars work or sound compared to my previous examples. I figure that they must be working for someone else so I don't harp about it, just mention it in contrast to another's opinion.

On the whole, every instrument overall is very useful in most musical contexts. If you disagree, you either don't understand wondersynths in general or are just playing favorites. My Fantom X7 has overwhelmingly more positives than I have gripes over, thus I hold onto it tightly. And even with Kronos looming, I'm reluctant to sell it. Same with my Motif, PC3, M3 (the keyboard and pads are delightful), etc etc etc.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akos Janca wrote:
I think there is nothing wrong with Ricky's opinion. He doesn't like Kronos and clearly explained why. What I think (and I suppose Korg also thinks) that much more people will like the Kronos than who don't.

All these opinions - positive or negative - are subjective and don't help much to other people.

Thanks, Ricky.



Akos - at the risk of changing the course of this thread, I'm sorry, but I have to pick up on your post.

Akos - Someone posts a scenario, others challenge it, and then you say that there is nothing wrong with the original post and that all stand points are valid. You've posted like this before, and I could not disagree with your stance more.

With respect - you're not saying very much in this, while at the same time you are essentially 'ticking off' people for making a legitimate challenge, which surely is part of what the health of this forum is all about?

Also, not ALL opinions are equally valid - which is what you seem to be saying. Indeed rarely is that the case. There are many scenarios - even in keyboard technology - which are not a matter of opinion, but instead are based on evidence or fact and where a discussion over a thread can teeth that out (I'm not suggesting that's the case on this thread)

But to me, one of the underlying strengths of this forum is the amount of healthy, active challenge that are centered on technical issues - rarely does it get personal (like I'm getting here and I apologise for this because you're a very sound and talented bloke whom I have great respect for) but your tendency to come back with generic 'all stand points are equally valid and leave it at that' leave me a little deflated.


Again I apologise for making it a little personal - I usually do not do that - but just feel I need to air that challenging posts is what this forum is about yet you repeatedly suggest otherwise (but whole heartedly expect you to challenge me here !!).

But slightly back on topic - Akos - I can't quit make it out from several posts - do you actually own an Kronos right now?


Kevin.
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rrricky rrrecordo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

burningbusch wrote:
The point to all this is if you're going to "put the microscope to" the product, let's look at all the issues and compare to the field rather than an isolated one.


My OP was intended to reflect my admittedly brief experience with a very limited subset of Kronos' capabilities. It was not my intent to embark upon crafting a treatise on the strengths and weaknesses of piano simulations that are designed primarily around sample playback.

Your points are clearly valid and well taken, but equally clearly go beyond my intent, which was simply to relate my own personal experience based on the short time I spent playing the Kronos' pianos and to a lesser extent, some HD-1 presets.

In the current hardware music workstation field, the comparison can be distilled down to 'no comparison'... Kronos' piano libraries - and Kronos as a whole - reign supreme.
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Akos Janca
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Kevin,

I understand you. I agree, not all opinions are equally valid. But I wanted to say everbody has the right to post it. (I meant: there is nothing wrong with having Ricky's opinion here.)
I didn't say he was right. But he actually played a Kronos and experienced something. He is not trolling - he explained *his* problem. OK. (We all know each other here already.)

While I like to analyze details I think instead of using a "microscope" it's better to play a Kronos. I haven't recognized such a problem with decays (but I haven't tested). If Ricky is so critical then nothing will satisfy him except a good real grand piano. No problem, nobody told Kronos was a Steinway.
But: a Steinway is not a Kronos either!

You know my opinion: For me OASYS/Kronos workstations are state-of-the-art technological creations. Very usable and versatile tools for modern keyboard artists.

To answer your question: no, I don't own a Kronos yet. The only one here I used for the demo is in a music shop. Anybody can try it on Thursdays with application in advance.
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shap
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:46 am    Post subject: Multiple playing scenarios Reply with quote

burningbusch wrote:
rrricky rrrecordo wrote:
When one puts the microscope to the actual product though, one finds "features" fairly quickly if one listens carefully and critically.


Yes, with these digital pianos there are a number of things you can listen to with a critical ear...


Indeed. And to add to your list of exhibits, the Motif ES and XF exhibit some or all of these as well. Speaking for myself, I've been pretty happy with the EastWest libraries, but it's an apples and oranges sort of comparison.

Above a certain level the question of "best" is both a matter of taste and a matter of goals. I grew up playing a grand piano, and I'm more worried about issues with keybed actions. I have yet to meet any synth whose action is fast enough to handle the opening of Billy Joel's Angry Young Man. Mind you, I've met a bunch of honest-to-god grand pianos that can't do it either. Thing is: if I can't issue the notes I want, it doesn't really matter how they sound. So like I said: taste and goals.

Anyway, three things I wanted to interject here:

First: In live performance, when you're done putting the piano through the PA system or your favorite amp, the sound has nothing to do with what Rick heard through half-decent monitors in a quiet room. For that class of users, live performance is the first determinant, and the Kronos is quite good - as are any number of other synths. The perfection of any particular sound may not be the most important factor for the majority of buyers.

Second: For the non-PCM synthesis techniques, we're going to have to learn how to apply them effectively. Even those of us who used the OASYS six years ago are now faced with different gear in our studios. Stuff that sounded fine through my old monitors won't sound quite so good through my Adam A7s, which are much less forgiving of sonic mistakes. Also, I've learned some since then. Point is: we're only two days into partial general availability on this synth. We're hearing the "out of box" sounds, but since we're still figuring out how to make it sound the way we want, it seems a bit early to be making pronouncements about what it does or doesn't sound like over the long haul.

Third and finally: it's important to remember that Kronos is a step in synth evolution, not an end-point. As the first synth that is based entirely on commodity hardware, it's arguably the first interesting step in a new evolutionary phase - which may or may not be won by Korg (or indeed by any major incumbent vendor) in the long run.

The last isn't really relevant to the sound quality of Kronos per say, but it has been very thought provoking for me.

Just saying...
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