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BasariStudios
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Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 6510
Location: NYC, USA
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 Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:27 am Post subject: Konos to M3M>>>M3M to Kronos<<< |
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I am just wondering, if one has the M3M and Kronos and connects them by MIDI
In to Out and backwards, i know one would be able to controll both of them with
each other...now, the PADS on the M3M, would they work perfectly controlling
the Kronos (the things missing in there) and vice versa, the Ribbon controlling
the M3M (also missing on M3M).
Thanks
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gjvti
Senior Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 327
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: |
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 I had similar question in another topic, but that certainly was not the right place to ask that. I understand that Kronos sequencer like M3 can't trigger Karma internally so the question is - could this work:
Kronos (local control off) midi out -> M3M midi in (for sequencing of live playing) -> M3M sequencer and/or live playing from midi in to M3M midi out -> Kronos midi in to trigger Karma, play Kronos synth engines and audio tracks? |
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Kevin Nolan
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| gjvti wrote: | I understand that Kronos sequencer like M3 can't trigger Karma internally so the question is - could this work:
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Perhaps I'm not understanding the questions on this thread, but I would fully expect the M3 Pads (or any external controller that can transmit MIDI notes over MIDI channels and MIDI CC messages) to be able to control essentially all Kronos features that can respond to it's own MIDI controllers. So on the pads question - yes - the M3 pads can control Kronos synths and drum kits.
Regarding the quote above - I'm not sure what you are saying - could you expand? It reads like your saying the Kronos internal sequencer can't trigger Karma - you mean, for example, that Karma realtime peformances cannot be recorded into the Karma internal sequencer, fo r later playback?
I haven't done this (I own the Karma and OASYS workstations) as I don't use Karma GE's as the basis for most of my compositions - but I strongly suspect you're wrong. Even the Korg Karma workstation was given a 200,000 note capacity (large for its time) to capture the huge amount of MIDI data generated in a Karma real time performance - so I strongly believe that all Korg workstations (even Triton one) can indeed control Karma functions. But I'm happy to stand correctrd on that if I'm wrong.
But perhaps there's a little confusion (on my and your part) here - strictly - if you record a Karma realtime performance, you are just recording a lot of standard MIDI data. When replayed - it's now the sequencer MIDI data affecting the synth engine, not strictly the Karma GE. So in this sense, one never needs the internal sequencer to 'trigger Karma'.
Of course, if you want, you can assign a Karma GE to a song song track / program and then just record notes - and when those notes play back they will trigger the Karma GE associated with them and then you can either let it reply and even record realtime control of it as an overdub.
And remember for all appropriate GE's, they sync to the system bpm clock also triggering the sequencer (unless a GE is manual advance or one that doesn't sync internally) - but in general a GE will sync to the bpm of the sequencer.
So I'm not sure what you mean, strictly, by the internal seqencer 'triggering Karma' - again perhaps you could expand.
Stephen Kay - care to chime in on this?
Kevin. |
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gjvti
Senior Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 327
Location: Riga, Latvia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | Of course, if you want, you can assign a Karma GE to a song song track / program and then just record notes - and when those notes play back they will trigger the Karma GE associated with them and then you can either let it reply and even record realtime control of it as an overdub.
...Kevin. |
Are you sure about that? As far as I know on M3 it is not possible to route midi data from sequencer to Karma engine internally. You need external sequencer/midi input to trigger Karma. This is exactly what I mean. Recording Karma output indeed creates a lot of midi data. But recording performance only doesn't trigger Karma when played back from sequencer. I think this was discussed in M3 wishlist tread.
Gunars |
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Kevin Nolan
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| gjvti wrote: | | Kevin Nolan wrote: | Of course, if you want, you can assign a Karma GE to a song song track / program and then just record notes - and when those notes play back they will trigger the Karma GE associated with them and then you can either let it reply and even record realtime control of it as an overdub.
...Kevin. |
Are you sure about that? As far as I know on M3 it is not possible to route midi data from sequencer to Karma engine internally. You need external sequencer/midi input to trigger Karma. This is exactly what I mean. Recording Karma output indeed creates a lot of midi data. But recording performance only doesn't trigger Karma when played back from sequencer. I think this was discussed in M3 wishlist tread.
Gunars |
I'm sorry - I'm still confused. Why would you want to trigger Karma from all of that recorded MIDI data? Ihe MIDI data IS the Karma performance, recorded as MIDI events into the sequencer (Karma just generates MIDI events as output). So there is no need to "trigger Karma" from a sequnecer - internal or external - the sequnece track has already captured the performance (of MIDI data) initially created by the Karma GE and, on playback, takes the place of the Karma GE realtime performance. Yopu don't need Karma on at that stage of the process.
I mean, what precisely are you looking for the sequencer to do to Karma? If every recorded MIDI event (or even just the notes) from an already recorded Karma performance was routed back in to the Karma GE it would be a mess.
Remember - a Karma GE is nothing more that a generator of MIDI data - so once it's captured on a sequencer track theres no need to retrigger Karma. you could remove the Karma GE off that track altogether but on replay the captured Karma GE performance will replay as captured on the track.
An alternative to this is to record _just_ notes on a track, and then as they play, assign a Karma GE on that track and it will affect the MIDI notes it receives and do it'd 'GE thing'. Yuo can even interact with it via the controllers. Here I believe both the Korg Karma and OASYS can indeed route MIDI notes from the internal sequencer to the Karma engine - so in essence the sequencer is just taking the place of the keyboard - and the GE is 'free running in realtime' but synced clock-wise to the sequencer. At least, I believe that's possible - in fact I'm sure of it - I remember doing a piece using one of the Karma GE's and just recording basic 'root notes' every bar or two to transpose the realtime running Karma GE Arpeggio. I'm shocked if this is not possible on the M3.
But again - I think there is confusion (for both of us!) here over what 'triggering Karma' means, what a Karma GE does and outputs and what a Karma performance is. We could be talking across purposes?
It'd be good if you could clarify the M3 issue, and if Stephen Kay or someone more knowledgeable could chime in and indicate the true state of affairs and whether there's a difference in capabilities here across the various workstations with Karma.
Kevin. |
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StephenKay
KARMA Developer
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Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:32 am Post subject: |
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I'm not necessarily comprehending this discussion, but let me chime in:
There are two ways to record KARMA:
1. You record the output of what KARMA is generating, onto a bunch of tracks and MIDI Channels (or audio tracks), such that you have captured the entire output of the KARMA performance, and then can turn KARMA Off, and play back the tracks, and you have everything that it did.
2. You record a "Control track" - essentially, you record only what is played on the global channel that feeds into the input of KARMA. You record the chords or pads that are played in the input area, you record the RH lead passages, you record the button pushes and scene changes as MIDI controller events. Then, you play this control track (one track of information) back into the input of KARMA such that it recreates the whole performance, and KARMA re-generates the same performance each time you play back the control track.
In method 1, if you press the wrong scene button at the wrong time, then you have the output of the wrong scene recorded onto a bunch of tracks, and you have to scrap the whole thing and start over.
In method 2, if you press the wrong scene button, you can go into event edit and change the value of CC #30, and make it select the right scene. That's just one example.
I always work with method 2, myself. And method 2 cannot be done in the internal Korg sequencers. You can only record the output of KARMA, not the input to KARMA and then route it back into KARMA. Don't ask me why. I didn't make that part of the product. I've requested it before.
Using method 2 requires an external DAW. It's no secret that I've always extolled on various forums my preference for working with computer sequencers. I use Digital Performer, should it matter. You simply record the output of what you are doing, and all the button pushes and controller moves, on a single MIDI track, and you play that back into KARMA - essentially replacing your human input to KARMA with a recording of your human input to KARMA. The great benefit is you can tweak the track, get the timing of the button pushes perfect if you messed them up, and then play that back and LATER record the output of KARMA to all the various MIDI tracks or audio if you want to. Or, you can create the Control Track of just the music first - get all the controller moves and scene changes and chords (without any solos or melodic lines) recorded first. Then add another track in the external sequencer, and while the first Control Track is causing KARMA to generate the backing tracks in real-time, you record an additional separate track of the melody lines (which can then also be tweaked separately later.)
Don't know if that explanation helped...
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Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Stephen -
That resolves the thread and beautifully explains how best to record Karma - I've learnt a lot from it and am much clearer on how to proceed. Hope the original posters are satisfied too.
Cheers and thanks,
Kevin. |
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