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jerrythek Platinum Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 2931
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: Best method of navigation/data entry |
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I see lots of posts and anguish over the Data Wheel, and I am not a Korg representative, so I have nothing to offer you all about that.
But I have written in the past about my opinion and recommendation of when to use which controller and I'd like to share it again. These have come about from untold hours/days/weeks/months or programming Korg keyboards since the Trinity, and from the other MPB programmers whose opinions carry a lot of weight for me.
For me, selecting sounds is best done by the most direct entry possible. That is usually a Bank Button followed by a number entered from the numeric keypad.
For scrolling through sounds I use the Value Up and Down buttons. Trying to move a Wheel one tick at a time is tedious and inaccurate IMHO.
Entering a parameter value is usually the numeric keypad, or sometimes Value Up or Down if I want to hear a small change. I like the tactile response of the click there the best. And I can more easily "count" the numbers I need, like deciding I want to go up 5 for example.
Getting to the far end or beginning of a value? The Value Slider, for sure. Slam it up or down.
So where do I use the Data Wheel? Mostly for scrolling across value ranges when editing samples/audio... going from a Loop Start selection to Loop End, for example.
Think about this and try these ideas out. And share your preferences in this thread. I was motivated to write this after reading people anguish over the idea of not being able to use the Data Wheel when playing live - that's is the least likely time I would ever use it. Personally speaking, of course.
Regards,
Jerry |
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keywhiz61 Full Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 103
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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My style is pretty much like yours. I only use the data wheel for large scrolls. I almost never use it live.
I still wouldn't want it to fall off during a gig though. Or have to rummage through the case for it. |
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amosdef Junior Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 79 Location: New York, USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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My data wheel has been ok so far, but to be honest I haven't used it very much and don't plan on it. I'm much more likely to use the value slider, the number pad and the value increment/decrement buttons. I would say, for my use, the sample editing section would be the most I would use the data wheel. I'm also hoping that the software editor will make this process easier as well, so I don't need to sit at the keyboard to do any lengthy editing anyway as it's much more confortable for me to use the computer to do programming.
Live, I never plan on touching the data wheel. Having the Set List on the touchscreen is one of the main reasons I got this keyboard. One touch access to all my songs is awesome.
After reading about the problems that some people have had, I actually tried to get my data wheel to pop off and while it's not the sturdiest thing in the world, I wasn't able to get it to fall off unless I slid my finger under neath the edge of the knob while spinning it around back and forth. Not exactly normal usage. I can see that there could be issues for some, but for me it's not a big deal and more than likely there's some sort of adjustment that can be made on a replacement knob for those that have problems with it. _________________ Amos
www.amishoutlaws.com |
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keyplayer14 Full Member
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 160 Location: Exeter
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Best method of navigation/data entry |
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jerrythek wrote: | I was motivated to write this after reading people anguish over the idea of not being able to use the Data Wheel when playing live - that's is the least likely time I would ever use it. Personally speaking, of course. |
Me too.
I have a slight concern over the data wheel issue in the context of how it may (or may not) relate to the overall build quality of the machine, but I wouldn't be likely to touch it on stage. |
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RonF Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002 Posts: 1179 Location: San Diego, CA USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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IMHO, the exclusion of the "finger dimple" in the KRONOS data wheel really limits its usage anyways, regardless of any perceived quality issue with it. Even if it were rock solid perfect build design (mine appears to be thus far, knock wood), its overall design limits its usefulness.
With the dimple, you can really rock the wheel, with great accuracy. Without it.....its hit and miss for accuracy, and certainly not suited for multiple rapid 360 degree turns on its axis with the human hand....without a certain amount of pressure and force that the dimple does not require. Thus, likely why there are wheels falling off.....as people try to manipulate it rapidly over multiple turns....which requires unusual force from the SIDE of the wheel, rather than minimal pressure from the top of the wheel with a dimple.
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keywhiz61 Full Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 103
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:07 am Post subject: |
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RonF wrote: | IMHO, the exclusion of the "finger dimple" in the KRONOS data wheel really limits its usage anyways, regardless of any perceived quality issue with it. Even if it were rock solid perfect build design (mine appears to be thus far, knock wood), its overall design limits its usefulness.
With the dimple, you can really rock the wheel, with great accuracy. Without it.....its hit and miss for accuracy, and certainly not suited for multiple rapid 360 degree turns on its axis with the human hand....without a certain amount of pressure and force that the dimple does not require. Thus, likely why there are wheels falling off.....as people try to manipulate it rapidly over multiple turns....which requires unusual force from the SIDE of the wheel, rather than minimal pressure from the top of the wheel with a dimple.
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Good point. The only time I really use the data wheel on my Motif is to scroll across large values, and then that usually means I'm putting my finger in the dimple and spinning the heck out of it. With no dimple, I may not ever use the wheel at all. |
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sani Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002 Posts: 354 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Best method of navigation/data entry |
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jerrythek wrote: |
For scrolling through sounds I use the Value Up and Down buttons. Trying to move a Wheel one tick at a time is tedious and inaccurate IMHO.
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That's how I was scrolling through the sounds on my Korg workstations before the data wheel was introduced (m1, t3, x3, n364).
The result was that those two buttons were always the first ones which stopped working because they were kinda most often used. Since then I prefer to use the data wheel for changing parameters. |
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jahrome Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011 Posts: 378 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:29 am Post subject: |
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I have no issues with using the data wheel to scroll through one patch at a time. However, most of the time, I open up the bank/program select menu to select the program I want via touch screen. I would never use the up/down buttons for selecting patches. I feel just like Sani in this regard. Doing so will eventually wear out the tact switches...and rather quickly. This isn't the case with most data wheel on keyboards. I find that the data wheels are among the last things you need to replace...until now.
Primarily, I use the data wheel for sample editing. This is a must for me. I use the value slider first and then the data wheel for fine editing. Like a few others here, I do like data wheels that have the finger dimple. But I wouldn't go as far to say that a data wheel without it is useless. My Fantom G doesn't have a dimple. The cursor keys (up, down, left, right) encircle that data wheel. I would go as far to say that the Fantom G is flawless in this regard. Not a single issue in 3 years. Even Akai's MPC 1000, which was infamous for failed hardware, has a data wheel without the dimple. It uses the same design as the MPC 500. Both data wheels are better than Kronos; and both machines cost 70% to 85% less. _________________ Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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orpheus2006 Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 597 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:23 am Post subject: |
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This thread is downright ridicolous. The data wheel is crappy, but instead of forcing Korg to do sth about it, one workaround tip follows the other.
Honestly, I'm waiting for the Kronos Version 2, with a solid data wheel and at least 8 touch sensitive pads. There's is always a next version, and this time Korg needs to do more than just fixing SW issues.
I'm happy with the M3 in the meantime. _________________ www.soundcloud.com/orpheus2006
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Korg M3-88 w/ EXB-Radias, Yamaha Motif Rack w/ PLG150-AN & PLG150-DR, Novation A-Station, RME Multiface II Audio Interface, Thinkpad T60 Notebook w/ Sonar X3 and various VSTi, Event TR8 monitors, Beyerdynamic DT-770 headphones |
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Kontrol49 Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2006 Posts: 1280
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: |
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orpheus2006 wrote: | This thread is downright ridicolous. The data wheel is crappy, but instead of forcing Korg to do sth about it, one workaround tip follows the other.
. |
it just seems Jerry is trying to offer some kind of advice on how to use it or get round that issue of perhaps overzealous use of the Data Wheel that perhaps would highlight the problems,we can all see its a poor design and is pretty obvious after what type of Data wheel was fitted previous to other korg workstations that its a cheap alternative.
I kind of get the feeling that although Jerry is no longer employed by Korg he still felt disheartened by these issues and perhaps trying to find a positive about it without trying to come across in defence of Korg which in all fairness for the years he worked for them probably feels like he has some allegiance with them still.
We shouldn't criticise him over his thread,at least he is aware of this and maybe still has some verbal connection with Korg so could help to highlight the issues to them,even if various other Korg employees who frequent this forum are keeping stum about it.
lets not flame him over it We all have our own minds and make a decision to purchase or not,I'm sure Korg are aware of the problem and either they are trying to address it or Keep quiet hoping many won't mind,only time will tell.
Surely to ignore the problem per se is only going to be damaging to sales given they are still quenching the presales thirst,it wouldn't be good businness to bury their heads in the sand at such an early stage. |
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jerrythek Platinum Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 2931
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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orpheus2006 wrote: | This thread is downright ridicolous. The data wheel is crappy, but instead of forcing Korg to do sth about it, one workaround tip follows the other. |
Wow... no need for the hostility. Far too often people seem to post in absolutes, and exaggerations on the net. I was reacting to that - things like "I can't go on stage without XXX" or "this thing is worthless because of XXX'. And post insulting statements like you just did.
Yes, I used to work for Korg and I know the company very well, and I knew they would deal with this in the proper fashion. They always do. But in the spirit of a good community of qualified users who can help each other, and share good ideas with each other I offered my long time and qualified experience. I did it in a new thread, not as a reaction to stop any ongoing dialog in an existing thread. And I did it in a way that asked other users to share their methods and tips for operating the whole navigational experience.
There should be MORE of this in the forums as far as I'm concerned. Sharing knowledge, tips and tricks, experience, and creative ideas. And less snarky attacks on qualified members. Just saying...
Jerry |
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EvilDragon Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 1992 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry, a very welcome post and suggestions/clafirications from your side. I for one thought of it as really useful and illustrative to people who are alpha-dial-whores. |
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RichF Senior Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 Posts: 435 Location: Hoboken, NJ
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry, thanks for your input here. This is really valuable information. There's a specific tool for every job, and you've always had a great way of explaining why we have multiple navigation methods.
...And "qualified" barely begins to cover it.
-Rich _________________ Richard Formidoni |
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orpheus2006 Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 597 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry,
I regret I posted this in the heat of the moment.
I didn't intend to say your (or somebody else's) tips are useless. Now reading it again it was really too much overreaction.
Please accept my apololgies. _________________ www.soundcloud.com/orpheus2006
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Korg M3-88 w/ EXB-Radias, Yamaha Motif Rack w/ PLG150-AN & PLG150-DR, Novation A-Station, RME Multiface II Audio Interface, Thinkpad T60 Notebook w/ Sonar X3 and various VSTi, Event TR8 monitors, Beyerdynamic DT-770 headphones |
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cello Platinum Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 Posts: 2152 Location: Glasgow, UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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RichF wrote: | ...And "qualified" barely begins to cover it.
-Rich |
Well said! +1 _________________ Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5, |
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