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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | >Come on - everything is there: sympathetic resonances, duplex resonances, harp resonances, pedal noises, proper una-corda (and not just a lowpass filter), proper recreation of the sound when hitting an already vibrating string, etc., etc.
WOW, I heard nothing of that stuff. Maybe something's wrong on the demo on my system? |
The fact that you didn't hear it shows how conditioned people are to sampled pianos. It's all in there - and I believe you should be able to recognize all those things if you've ever played a real piano, which I think you did! If you don't hear it, however, you have sliders to increase those effects and bring them clearer into the picture (check the parameters behind Action section, and Design tab).
| aron wrote: | | I will try it again - how much power does it require to sound good? I'm using an 8 processor Mac Pro - but I only have 6 gig of memory. |
Pianoteq is all about CPU. It only needs 256 MB of RAM or so. Tweak it. Don't use presets as end-all-be-all. They're not supposed to be that. They're starting point to sculpt the piano to sound how YOU want it to sound.
With your CPU, you can put it to max polyphony (256), enable multiprocessing support, and drive it at 88200 or so with low latency. And you'll probably use less than 7% of your monstrous CPU power. Isn't that great?  |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's just that every time I sit at a Steinway or Yamaha grand, it only takes one note to realize that none of the simulations even sound close to the real thing.
I will check it out again.
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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That goes without saying - nothing replaces the real thing (but Pianoteq is the closest  )
Although I'm more of a Bösendorfer/Kawai guy, as stated above. Steinways and Yamahas don't move me in the same way. |
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EXer
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | That goes without saying - nothing replaces the real thing (but Pianoteq is the closest ) |
Exactly.
A real piano sounds so crappy that even a less-than-perfect synth will never be able to sound as bad as such a pile of sh¤t!
Do you realise that nothing is consistent in a piano:
Some notes have 2 strings, other notes have 3 strings, I even heard that there are notes with only 1 string! This is probably where the manufacturers cut costs...
Worse: for a note which has 2 or 3 strings, all these strings are not even tuned exactly at the same frequency! You can hear horrible beatings! Even these are inconsistent, they vary from note to note.
And then the whole thing isn't in tune: the intervals are wider at the ends of the kbd than at its center (this flaw is known as 'stretching the tune', or something like that...)
Not to mention that when you're playing a note, there's no way to prevent some other notes to ring. This is a very unsympathetic defect. And it can even become worse when you press the sustain foot switch, probably because of a design flaw.
Let's not speak of the action: the only parameter the player can control on this primitive instrument is the initial speed of the hammer. Yes, for those who don't know, the sound is produced by hammers hitting the strings. That's probably why you can hear 'beatings'!
Let's go more technical: the hardness of the felt that covers these hammers is not the same for each note. It seems that on the white keys near the center of the keyboard the felt is less hard than on the black keys at the extreme bass and treble of the keyboard. Why this occurs remains obscure, but a consequence is added discrepancy in the sound.
And these hammers are propelled against the strings by a bunch of mechanical bits and pieces that produce noises of their own which spoil the sound produced by the strings...
I really can't figure out how one could like such a horrible thing, let alone try to reproduce it with such a perfect instrument as a digital synthesizer...
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Awesome post, EXer!  |
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jg::
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 685
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Nice one, EXer. It reminds me that sometimes, an old upright piano is exactly what's needed.
jg:: |
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Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:11 am Post subject: |
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I suppose some people find real women horribly flawed too and prefer Real Dolls. I'll take my women made of flesh and my pianos made of wood, strings and a little carbon fiber. Women and acoustic pianos might be big pains in the ass, but I love them nonetheless.
In all seriousness though, well made pianos that have been properly maintained can hold there tune for quite some time. I get my piano tuned 2 - 3 times a year and it is barely out of tune by the time I get it tuned. That being said, most pianos I run across are out of tune and do sound bad.
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synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| EXer wrote: | And these hammers are propelled against the strings by a bunch of mechanical bits and pieces that produce noises of their own which spoil the sound produced by the strings...
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Not to mention, but I will, the inherent latency introduced by this mechanism. How the heck can pianer players even bang out a sensible tune, let alone a decent arpeggio?? I doan geddit... 
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:07 am Post subject: Ouch! |
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| EXer wrote: | | A real piano sounds so crappy that even a less-than-perfect synth will never be able to sound as bad as such a pile of sh¤t! |
ROTFLOL!
| EXer wrote: | Some notes have 2 strings, other notes have 3 strings, I even heard that there are notes with only 1 string! This is probably where the manufacturers cut costs...
Worse: for a note which has 2 or 3 strings, all these strings are not even tuned exactly at the same frequency! You can hear horrible beatings! Even these are inconsistent, they vary from note to note. |
A few years ago, Boesendorfer examined the possibility of reducing costs by dropping one string across the board. Three strings would become two, two would become one, and so forth. Among the cited advantages were reduction in tuning maintenance, elimination of the worst kinds of beat frequencies (and their associated resonances), reduced tension on the sound board yielding potential design and material simplifications and cost reductions, and so forth. The marketing and sales teams were very excited. Finally Boesendorfer would be able to offer a high-quality keyboard that would compete directly on price with Baldwin and perhaps even (it was quietly whispered) Fischer-Price!
After years and years of research, involving millions of dollars of expense, nearly all of the challenges were solved. Only one challenge remained: the changes would result in a significant net reduction in the weight of the resulting piano, which would require the introduction of lead leg weights to ensure faithful reproduction of the original Boesendorfer "look and feel". Laboratory experiments were conducted to determine the appropriate amount of lead, leading to the conclusion that the existing legs would need to be replaced with legs made completely of lead and surrounded by a thin wood veneer. Further years of effort went in to designing a suitable high-gloss coating to protect the veneer. Many compounds were considered, a few were compounded and tested, and competitive analysis against third-party vendors were made. It was concluded that Behr Spar Varnish (obtained through international delivery from Home Depot) was the most durable varnish available. Through testing, it was determined that Behr Spar Varnish not only protected the veneer from ordinary wear, but also from small dogs and children.
A prototype was constructed. With great anticipation it was placed on its own feet, with the result that the lead legs collapsed, and the prototype piano fell to the floor. Comparative sampling evaluation was, at this point, cancelled, though the resonance demonstrated by contact with the floor was remarked on favorably by the engineers, most especially a new hire named Busoni.
Further years of research ensued, including extensive cost analysis on the engineering options. After much consideration, it was determined that the simplest and most cost effective solution was to add an additional sounding string to each note. Two would become three, one would become two, and so forth. A prototype was constructed, and it was soon noted that the prototype displayed a noticeable Liszt to the right. Nine additional keys were added at the bottom of the keyboard to balance the instrument. Marketing was called in to determine a suitable name for the quite remarkable, and never before seen result.
It came to be known as the Imperial Grand Piano.
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