Korg Forums

[Scott]

One of the main reasons I wanted the Kronos was to replace my 38 pound CX3 with a 28 pound CX3 that could do things besides organ. But so far, it's a bit frustrating.

First, the manual is wrong (or, at least, Set List patch 4, the organ on the first page, does not use the default knob and switch assignments). So that was messing me up for a while. (Knob 4 is overtone, not noise level as shown in the manual; Knob 5 is key click, not leakage; and the functions of switches 2 and 3 are reversed, as to which one does percussion fast/slow and which does percussion loud/soft).

Second, the function of the buttons is sometimes counter-intuitive. For example, switch #1 is percussion on/off. Well, when it's lit up percussion is off, and when the light is off, the percussion is on!

The next button is percussion soft/loud, and I have no idea yet whether lit means "soft" or "loud". In the default organ patch, soft and loud are so close to each other in volume that, if you repeatedly hit a single note with nothing but percussion on, the volume seems to change more based on where you are in the Leslie cycle than on which position this button is in.

I tried to figure out whether lighting this button made it soft or loud by looking at the Control Surface. Well, the field that says "Perc Soft/Loud" is displayed with a status button that simply says On or Off, mirroring the setting of the light in the physical button. Since the options are Soft and Loud, it would be nice if the button said Soft or Loud instead of On or Off. If they can't do that, then maybe the heading should be just "Perc Soft" or "Perc Loud" so you know which of those two things you're turning on or off.

As an aside, the small type and the font selected mean that it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between the words "On" and "Off." So you'd better remember that On is Red and Off is Green (also the opposite of my intuition, since to me, Red=Stop=Disabled=Off and Green=Go=Enabled=On).

On to the next button. Percussion Decay is short when lit. That's okay, but again the Control Surface is confusing, if you're trying to figure that out, because on the screen the button is called Perc Decay with the possible parameters, again, On and Off (rather than Short and Long). Logically, how are you supposed to know whether turning Perc Decay "On" sets it to Short or Long? You're supposed to intuit that Off-Long and On-Short. Similarly, the last button is labeled Perc 2nd/3rd but when you toggle it, instead of displaying "2nd" or "3rd" in the button, it again displays "On" or "Off." You're supposed to intuit that Off=2nd and On=3rd. There had to be a better way to label these things, whether in the headings or inside the buttons.

Overall, the organ feels like it triggers a little too deep to me... and it turns out that, unlike a "real" CX3, there is no option to change it to a shallow trigger (or at least I couldn't find it).

Lastly, I'd rather the endcaps weren't so high at the end of the keyboard. Based on the real CX3 and real Hammonds, I'm used to some blank space above the high C without running into a solid barrier. I appreciate that they didn't want to make the piece any wider than necessary, but maybe they could have shaped the endcap so it didn't protrude above the keys all the way to the front. With common organ gliss/palm techniques, I can see uncomfortably banging into it. (I don't mind that the keys are not waterfall... though I do think the original digital CX3 keys probably had a better organ feel, and they weren't waterfall either.)

Anyway, it's a little disappointing because of how many little things could clearly have been better with just a little thought. But I expect I'll make it work. And maybe some of this can be addressed in a software upgrade...? Okay, not the endcap...

[jg::]

Hi Scott,

I think you may benefit from spending more time in the actual programming pages of the CX3 in order to set things up the way you want them. You'll find all the parameters you're used to in the old CX3, just more of them visible on the screen at once.

The Tone Adjust part of the control panel has to look the same for every program, no matter what the engine. But in the real programming pages, you can set things up, so that, for example, sw1 lit means that perc is on. Then, set the actual levels of soft and loud percussion so that they suit you and the button makes a real difference on that particular program.

It means editing many of the sounds over time to suit your needs, but ultimately, I suspect you'll be rewarded.

jg::

[danatkorg]

You're absolutely right that a couple of the Tone Adjust default settings shown in version 1 of the Parameter Guide were not correct. This was fixed in version 2, which can be downloaded from korg.com/kronos.

[Scott]

[danatkorg]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for all of your detailed comments.

[Scott]

[danatkorg]

[X-Trade]

[Scott]

[EXer]

A Kronos is a deep synth. It's a way more capable and versatile instrument than a clonewheel organ or a stage keyboard.

Inevitably this implies a learning curve. Learning to fly a jet fighter takes more time and more effort than learning to fly a biplane.

From what I have read, it seems a Kronos is not for you. A clonewheel organ or a stage keyboard are probably better suited to your expectations.

[Scott]

[Scott]

An update for anyone following this who has similar interest in addressing the CX-3 functionality, I think I've come up with some good solutions...

First I was thinking about connecting a MIDI foot switch which I could program to send a CC command to toggle the rotary function, with the idea that that would leave my Assignable Foot Switch free for other things. Unfortunately, it seems there is no CC command for the rotary effect. But since the rotary effect is normally pre-assigned to a controller (JS+Y, CC #01), you should be able to assign a MIDI foot switch to CC #01, and that would still leave your Assignable Foot Switch free.

There is still a complication that, in a Combi, you have to allow for the possibility that the JS+Y function triggered by the pedal (when you want to change the Leslie) might also toss some kind of modulation into some other sound, so it's still not quite as "clean" as a pedal sending a dedicated rotary toggle command, but it seems quite workable. You'd have to check other sounds in the Combi and disable/reassign any function they may have associated with the JS+Y function. Though also, since you just "tap" the switch to change the rotary effect, it's possible that in some cases any unwanted effect the pedal may have on some other sound in the Combi may be so brief as to not really be an issue.

Back on the topic of status light indicators, the manual actually addresses this specifically from the organ perspective:

"Display shows programmed values–not AMS
These graphics show the values of the programmed parameters, including any edits made via Tone Adjust. They do not update to show temporary changes made by AMS modulation.
For instance, moving the joystick up (JS+Y) will often switch the Rotary Speaker between fast and slow, via AMS. You’ll hear the sound change ‐ but since the programmed parameter is still the same, the display won’t be updated."

One solution is to use only the actual Tone Adjust buttons themselves for all real-time organ controls (there's room to put some nice labels above them), and that will keep their displays in sync with their actual operation... and I think this will work well for everything except Leslie speed, where Button 16 would be too awkward for regular use. But assuming a program defaults to Leslie at Slow, you could assign the more conveniently located SW2 to toggle the Leslie, then the SW2 light will also function as a correct indicator of Leslie speed. In addition, if you then assign the Assignable Foot Switch to duplicate the function of SW2, then the light will continue to be in sync even if you switch speeds with the foot pedal.

This seems to solve the problem nicely. For pedal control, it's not as "instant" a solution as assigning the pedal to JS+Y where it will just work automatically; for this other approach, you'll need to change the Leslie toggle parameter in all your CX3 programs from JS+Y to SW2. (I don't think there's any way to do this on a more "global" level for the whole engine, I think you have to do it program by program, but it's not too bad. And really, while conceptually I like the idea of making all CX3 programs consistently work that way, in reality, I'm only going to use a handful of the factory presets... after that, I'll be saving my own programs anyway... not to mention that a lot of organ sound variation is stuff I do in real time with the drawbars regardless.)

A possibly time-saving tip if you're going to do this... if instead of JS+Y, you want to set SW2 to toggle the Leslie function, you'll also need to change its type from toggle to momentary. (You'll also want to disable the percussion function already assigned to SW2... but of course you can still turn percussion on and off with Tone Adjust button 1.)

Again, if you're using the organ in a Combi, you'll have to pay attention to whether SW2 is doing something else in one of the other programs, which you may want to reassign or disable so that it doesn't occur every time you change Leslie speed.

Anyway, while the ergonomics are not as clean or obvious out of the box as I'd have liked/expected a clonewheel mode to be (or as I think they easily could have been), ultimately I think you can get it to work really well.

(p.s. -- as I've gotten into it more, I can see where my earlier idea about having joystick-left and joystick-right both alter leslie speed was not possible... you can't assign two different controllers to perform the same function. That said, I have a feeling Dan's solution was very clever, and hopefully I'll get to the point where I can really understand what he did! I also see that it appears not to have been possible to have any horizontal "half-moon" style leslie control and vertical "traditional korg" style implementation at the same time, for the same reason. I'm getting it...)

[X-Trade]

In terms of setting up controllers you may be going the wrong way about it.

you will find most of the assignments you can set up for the pedal/foot switches/damper relate to 'controls' and not 'functions' or 'parameters'.

e.g. Joystick +Y is a control, not really a characteristic in a program.

Certainly in a rotary IFX you will find where you can assign these controls to the parameters or functions of that effect.
There should perhaps be similar settings in the CX3 engine. In Korg's other workstations they have called this AMS (and sometimes in effects you have DMod). This is a crucial concept to understand.

If the keyboard is multifunctional (e.g. sometimes you're playing organ but othertimes you're playing synths or strings or piano) then you want to be able to chose what a controller does on a program by program basis.


Generally the first thing to check then is not "what your foot pedal is set to control" but "what is being controlled by your foot pedal".
Example for a basic HD1 or AL1 program, if you want the pedal to control cutoff, you go to the page that has filter cutoff and select in one of the free AMS boxes to use the assignable pedal as a source, and then set the 'intensity' (how much you want it to move the filter cutoff by).

So if you changed your pedal to control Joystick +Y (CC01) controller, then anything set to respond to Joystick +Y will respond to the foot pedal too. But you're missing out on the possibility to program it to do something else in another program because you've effectively tied your Joystick and your Pedal together.

So setting realtime controller assignments in a combi or controller settings in global mode kinda sets or hardwires 'what messages the controls send out', and then on the other end that goes into the sound engine which picks up the controller messages and decides what to do with it. If two things are set to send the same thing then you can't really distinguish between them.
_________________
Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro

[Scott]

[X-Trade]

I'm glad you understand. Just trying to help


I think the main thing I'm trying to get across is it helps to make that distinction in your mind between the controllers and the sound engine or at least parameters of it. They're almost like two separate entities for the most part. Because you have that control over what the controllers actually transmit. And then in the program you tell it what to do with those.

AMS is also quite confusing for some people. It is immensely powerful which is one thing I really like about the Korg workstations. Instead of saying "I want the Joystick to control Vibrato", you can say "I want the vibrato intensity to be controlled by the joystick. Oh and the filter cutoff too, and the drive amount, and how about the reverb level whilst I'm at it?"
_________________
Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro