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TheWeed42
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 13
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 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: |
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I'm halfway between Spokane and Boise, so it would be one of those two places.
Again, I'm sure for a number of reasons that the SGX-1 Grands would be stiff competition for Ivory. But I'm not impressed with the M3 piano samples, and I'm assuming that the Kronos's non-SGX pianos are about the same. Haven't been impressed with the samples I heard, anyway.
Playing is believing though. That's what sold me on the Nord sounds. That and everyone who talked to me after the gig raved about them. |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| TheWeed42 wrote: | | I'm sure for a number of reasons that the SGX-1 Grands would be stiff competition for Ivory. But I'm not impressed with the M3 piano samples, and I'm assuming that the Kronos's non-SGX pianos are about the same. |
I don't know that this assumption will hold up. The M3 implementations were hardware synthesis, and they were approximations to the OASYS result. I think that in the end you're really going to have to listen for yourself.
| TheWeed42 wrote: | | Haven't been impressed with the samples I heard, anyway. |
If you've gone and listened carefully in person, then I think that's your answer. If you're talking about samples over the internet, then you haven't heard the samples - particularly if you are comparing SynthA over internet against SynthB over monitors in your studio.
There is merit to getting what you want out of the box. Speaking as a long-term Motif user, and a former OASYS owner (briefly), it does seem to me that the Kronos has the potential to give more value to the performer than the Motif, but perhaps at the cost of a higher investment in learning. The benefit of more engines is that you get a lot more flexibility, and as a side effect, greater modularity in the sound architecture. The price of flexibility, inevitably, is learning curve.
There is an awful lot I can get out of my Motif. There's clearly a lot more that I'll be able to get out of the Kronos in due course. Each is good out of the box, but each has things that the other lacks.
Is there an upright sound on the Motif XS/XF or the Roland Fantom that you like?
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| TheWeed42 wrote: | | I'm halfway between Spokane and Boise, so it would be one of those two places. |
I'm not up to speed on the geography of Illinois. Here is the list of GC Sites in Illinois. Call around and see who has a Kronos-61 on the floor.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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TheWeed42
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| shap wrote: | | Is there an upright sound on the Motif XS/XF or the Roland Fantom that you like? |
The Motif is a nice board, but I'm not a fan of the action. Haven't tried out the Fantoms in a while. I don't get many chances to try out new gear. I need to get up to Spokane to see the new stuff.
It's been my experience that most companies have only focused on quality upright sounds in the last 5 years or so. I used to feel lucky if I could get any reasonable piano, let alone having a bunch of distinct sounds to choose from.
Anyone know of places in the Northwest that might stock a Motif XF, Fantom, Stage 2 and Kronos 88 to A/B? |
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Randelph
Platinum Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 604
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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So you've played Nord upright pianos- which ones do you like?
Yesterday I went and auditioned them again on my Stage 88, and keep in mind this is not in a band context, just trying them out by themselves, but I end up not liking any of them- too much honk in the mid-range, and and the sound is very compressed.
It's like many of these Nord uprights do sound like the real deal, and then I remember why I prefer the sound of a grand so much more. But I do think that it's harder to find a pleasing sound, to my ears, for an upright on a digital keyboard than a grand, 'cause by definition the sound will not have an automatic nasal/compressed sound, which is harder to reproduce pleasantly on a sound system than more open sounds.
_________________
Keyboards: Kawai ES920 / Casio CT-X5000
Instruments: Keys / Alto Recorder and Melodica |
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TheWeed42
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Randelph wrote: | So you've played Nord upright pianos- which ones do you like?
Yesterday I went and auditioned them again on my Stage 88, and keep in mind this is not in a band context, just trying them out by themselves, but I end up not liking any of them- too much honk in the mid-range, and and the sound is very compressed. |
I really liked the Bosendorfer queen, BlueSwede and Rain piano samples. The BlueSwede was my favorite sound out of the instrument, and it beat out the grands for the stuff I was doing. I didn't find them to be excessively compressed - in fact I dialed in more of the Electro 3 compression. That's partly to compensate for the way I play though.
What size of sample do you have loaded? I found that the small samples universally sounded like crap. |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TheWeed42 wrote: | | shap wrote: | | Is there an upright sound on the Motif XS/XF or the Roland Fantom that you like? |
The Motif is a nice board, but I'm not a fan of the action. |
Yeah, but I asked because I was trying to get you to identify a reference sound that you do like.
In the NorthWest, GC in Seattle currently has on the floor all of the instruments you named. If your nearer to Portland, call GC Beaverton and ask. In Bellevue, WA check on Bellevue American Music - not sure they have a Motif XF there, though.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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TheWeed42
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| shap wrote: | | I asked because I was trying to get you to identify a reference sound that you do like. |
I wasn't able to spend time with a Motif or Fantom long enough to really dig into the sounds, so I'm afraid that's no help for you.
If you want to know what sounds I really like, check out this video of the Nord Piano:
http://youtu.be/3JCwuF3Wxz4?hd=1
I was able to get these exact sounds with the Electro 3. I used Sony MD7506 headphones, Mackie SRM450 speakers and some nice Grado headphones for monitoring, and the sounds were consistent with what's up there on Youtube. It's a pretty accurate representation. |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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So I stopped in to Bellevue American Music in Bellevue today. They have all of the synths you mentioned on the floor.
I also took a few moments to look at the Kronos for upright samples. Unfortunately they didn't have the "extra" voices loaded, so I can't speak to those. The only upright among the main set is the Honky Tonk voice, which is okay, but may not be exactly what you want.
I listened to the Nord video. In my view the pianos on the Kronos are as good, and the Honky Tonk voice on the Kronos sounds pretty similar to the Nord Saloon Upright - and could be made more so with modest tweaking.
But all that said, it really sounds to me like you are happy with the Nord sounds, and if so, you should buy what works for you.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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TheWeed42
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| shap wrote: | So I stopped in to Bellevue American Music in Bellevue today. They have all of the synths you mentioned on the floor.
I also took a few moments to look at the Kronos for upright samples. Unfortunately they didn't have the "extra" voices loaded, so I can't speak to those. The only upright among the main set is the Honky Tonk voice, which is okay, but may not be exactly what you want.
I listened to the Nord video. In my view the pianos on the Kronos are as good, and the Honky Tonk voice on the Kronos sounds pretty similar to the Nord Saloon Upright - and could be made more so with modest tweaking.
But all that said, it really sounds to me like you are happy with the Nord sounds, and if so, you should buy what works for you. |
For sure. I think it will come down (as it always does) to how the different boards feel and sound in person. I need to decide whether the Nord's features outweigh its limitations and higher price.
Thanks for your help on this. It's good to get a bunch of opinions. I think I'll have to make a trip over to Bellevue sometime soon.  |
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Scott
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1AMNXrZwP4 if you watch for about 30 seconds starting at around 3:30, you can see some adjustments that possibly begin to get the piano sounding a bit more like an upright...? |
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Randelph
Platinum Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 604
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| TheWeed42 wrote: | | Randelph wrote: | So you've played Nord upright pianos- which ones do you like?
Yesterday I went and auditioned them again on my Stage 88, and keep in mind this is not in a band context, just trying them out by themselves, but I end up not liking any of them- too much honk in the mid-range, and and the sound is very compressed. |
I really liked the Bosendorfer queen, BlueSwede and Rain piano samples. The BlueSwede was my favorite sound out of the instrument, and it beat out the grands for the stuff I was doing. I didn't find them to be excessively compressed - in fact I dialed in more of the Electro 3 compression. That's partly to compensate for the way I play though.
What size of sample do you have loaded? I found that the small samples universally sounded like crap. |
Well, howdy doody! I'm glad now I have checked this all out now!
I went ahead and loaded the Blue Swede as a medium size, and double checked my sound system. I've got a stereo pair of speakers, plus a Motionsound KP-500sn (dual 12"/500 watts) one point stereo keyboard combo amp.
I'm more sensitive than most to the midrange, and as I auditioned the patches that sounds best to my ears, it became obvious that both my speakers are not ideal for piano reproduction, which is supposed to be 1 of the hardest sounds to do cleanly. The You Tube link you posted did sound really good.
So I tried it with my nice Sennheiser headphones and am hearing a quality to all of the piano sounds that I hadn't heard before.
The Blue Swede is sweet! It sounds to me like a bar/parlour piano that's in tune and good shape, with a slight tack to it. I can see why you like this one so much. Being that I've got the Stage Classic, and therefore only room for one upright, this is my choice as well. Like playing classic blues, lh CG, CA, CBflat, you hear a warm round rich bass part.
The Grand Dame is great too. I've mostly been playing the Steinway D/ambient (it has the cleanest, non-midrangy sound of the whole lot, and even sounds decent on my sound systems). The Grand Dame would be a great alternative to the Steinway D even for classical pieces.
The Rain Piano reminds me too much of upright pianos that I don't like all that much, but I can see its uses. Too much tinny mid-highs to my liking.
I also reviewed the Grand Pianos, and found the Grand Imperial Bosedorfer very warm and full sounding, esp. in the bass registers- love it!
I was able to make each of these pianos passable/OK with my speaker systems with the Nord onboard eq dialed in, but this demonstration is really pointing out the need for different/better sound systems! Do you check your FOH sound quality so that you're sure they're hearing the highest fidelity version of your sounds?
Good luck in your quest for the right board for you. I'm sure you'd be able to find really good upright piano samples to load in the Kronos if it didn't have what you wanted, but the choice is also about a workstation experience as compared to a stage piano experience. I have serious g.a.s. for the Kronos but am super satisfied with the Nord for what it does.
Randy
_________________
Keyboards: Kawai ES920 / Casio CT-X5000
Instruments: Keys / Alto Recorder and Melodica |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | | if you watch for about 30 seconds starting at around 3:30, you can see some adjustments that possibly begin to get the piano sounding a bit more like an upright...? |
You're talking about the damper adjust? Definitely changes the tone of the piano, but that isn't an upright sound.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Randelph wrote: | | I've got a stereo pair of speakers, plus a Motionsound KP-500sn (dual 12"/500 watts) one point stereo keyboard combo amp. |
Randy: When somebody writes "stereo pair of speakers" rather than specifying which monitors they use, I tend to take them literally. There is a huge difference between end-user speaker behavior and monitor behavior. They have different equalization biases and resonances, different clipping behaviors, different assumptions about crossovers and cut-offs, different assumptions about listening field (how close are you) and so forth. Finally, people using end-user speakers generally haven't given a moment's thought to room conditioning, which makes a huge difference.
Headphones are better than speakers, but generally not in the same class as monitors. They are just too small to do a good job reproducing the low end. What you are saying about headphones suggests to me that you aren't using near-field monitors. So if you don't have a good set of monitors, I can't emphasize strongly enough that you should make that investment.
Here are my opinions, which are worth what you are paying for them. I don't own the ROKITs, but I've heard a lot of them. I do own mid-range suggestions, they have worked well for me for years, and these are generally well regarded choices. Note that prices here are per monitor. That is: you need two of each. If you can afford it, larger (8" vs. 6") is better.
If you are on a budget: the KRK ROKIT 8 ($249), ROKIT 6 ($174), or ROKIT 5 ($149), in that order. A lot of people like the Yamaha HSM line as well, but for my money the ROKITs are just as good and a fair bit cheaper. If I were moving up to the HSMs, I'd skip that tier and stretch for the ones below:
If your budget stretches into mid-quality monitors: ADAM A7x ($699) or A5x ($499) in that order. Don't let the Sweetwater idiots steer you away from these. Or the JBL LSR4328P ($769, but 2-pack $1539) or LSR4326P, in that order. The JBL 2000 series is okay, but lacks the room profiling, so I'ld step down to the ROKITs rather than buy the 2000-series JBLs. If you decide to move to 5-1 later, the profiling capabilities on the JBLs will tolerate a mix of 8" and 6" speakers.
If you are insanely rich: The ADAM P33A-A ($1549 ea) or P33A-B ($1749 ea). Fair warning: don't listen to these unless you're in this tier. After you hear them, everything else sounds like hopeless crap:-) Even the GC sales people, who are trained to start high and sell down, don't start with these - they are so much better that the next step down just doesn't seem worth buying. I heard a pair of the A-Bs a week ago, and my comment to the sales guy was "after that, my studio setup really sounds pretty lame". Since he already knew what I use, he just kinda laughed and said, "me too."
I own and use both the ADAM A7's (predecessor to the A7x) and the JBL 4328's. The JBLs are strong as general-purpose monitors, and they have the ability to do built-in room profiling and correction at the speaker, which is very helpful. Check out the Sound On Sound review.
The ADAMs do not do any profiling, but they are rabidly unforgiving - if there is a mistake in your mix, you'll hear it on them and there will be no place to hide from it. It's the ribbon tweeters that do that, and I would expect the same impact from the A5X, but I have no direct experience with that, and the A7X is clearly the sweet spot in the line. For me, the two serve different purposes.
For straight-up "monitor on synth/keyboard" use, I would personally go with one of the JBLs because of the room profiling capability. If I were using multiple synths, I'd then put a rack-mount mixer into the picture, or (what I actually use) a MOTO 828-MK3, which can be used in disconnected mode as a mixer and in connected mode as an audio interface. I've since moved on to PCI-based audio interfaces, but the 828mk3 remains a useful piece of gear to have around. Most of the competing devices don't do anything useful in disconnected mode, or if they do, can't be adjusted solely from the front panel (the 828mk3 supports this).
Note that the 828m3k implements a 7-band modeled EQ, which is helpful for room EQ. For comparison, the LSRs are doing 73 band eq (well, that's an oversimplification, but it's one way to look at matters).
Among the pro recording people I talk to, the JBLs get warm but not hot approval. I find they serve a purpose. Among those same people, the ADAMs are almost universally well-regarded.
shap
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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TheWeed42
Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Randelph wrote: | | I was able to make each of these pianos passable/OK with my speaker systems with the Nord onboard eq dialed in, but this demonstration is really pointing out the need for different/better sound systems! Do you check your FOH sound quality so that you're sure they're hearing the highest fidelity version of your sounds? |
Haha well, I have a luxury that most people don't, in that I am the main FOH engineer at the venue where I do most of my playing. So I have tuned the sound system for natural response from the start. If you trust your FOH person, and like his/her mixes, chances are he/she will know how to make your gear sound good.
My advice to keyboardists is to get a sound that you like, then cut 50% of the bass out of it. Keyboardists have a big problem with too much bass, especially if they're heavy LH players. That's actually why upright sounds are so useful - they tend not to have as much low end fundamental as a grand sample by virtue of the physics of the instrument. If you are already midrange-sensitive, then you are probably cutting out any objectionable frequencies there that the sound person would notice. Just let them know that you're willing to adjust on your end. If they're at all good at their jobs, they will want to do what it takes to help you sound better.
When I'm on keys, I ask for a flat, unequalized monitor mix, then dial in a sound I like that will mix with the band. Then I know that the FOH person only has to compensate for the mix in the room, and not my bad tone. |
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