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Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard?
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shap
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

I'm coming from a piano background, a hammer action keyboard is usually my first choice. I ordered a K88, but I want to get some work done and the delays are killing me. I have on-hand a competing synth with a high-quality weighted-action keyboard that I can use as a controller.

I'm wondering what I'll be losing if I switch my order to a K61 and drive it from the other keyboard? Conversely, if I stay with the K88 and occasionally find a need to drive it from a synth-action controller, what hassles will I be creating for myself that way?

The main things that occur to me as issues are the reach to the joysticks when I need them and the hassle factor when gigging out. Since I don't gig with a keyboard, the latter doesn't worry me that much.

Anything else I should be thinking about here? Is anybody out there actually doing this and able to speak from direct experience?

Thanks!
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there will be problems with that.

I have a Korg M50 that has e.g. no aftertouch but since I'm also using a second keyboard while gigging (Triton Extreme) that has aftertouch, by using MIDI the sounds of the M50 still can produce aftertouch changed sounds.

For weighted or non weighed the difference is even less, both a 61 and 88 keyboard can handle velocity (otherwise it would more be an organ), so except for the differences in hitting the keys and of course the number of keys there is no difference.
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ScoobyDoo555
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, I'll be doing the same thing - I've ordered a K61 and will be driving it through primarily my Yamaha KX88 and my Roland A80.

Best of both worlds imho - don't need (nor really want) to take an 88-note on the road tbh, but require the expression from a weighted bed in my studio.
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dangerousdave
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've pre-ordered the K-61, but I want the option of using a weighted controller.

At the moment I have a Yamaha SGX-620 at home. The action is great on it, but it's quite heavy and there's no MIDI out. I think I'm going to sell it, and put the money towards a P-95, which seems to have the same feel as the SGX-620, but on a much more portable board, and with MIDI out.

I was going to make do with a ProKeys 88 that I can have for free, but it feels terrible - far too clunky.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

shap wrote:
IThe main things that occur to me as issues are the reach to the joysticks when I need them and the hassle factor when gigging out. Since I don't gig with a keyboard, the latter doesn't worry me that much.

Anything else I should be thinking about here? Is anybody out there actually doing this and able to speak from direct experience?

Although the joysticks will be farther, if you're using the 88 primarily to trigger piano sounds, you may not be using joysticks much when playing the 88 anyway. If you pick a shallow 88, you can minimize the distance, though. Also, some 88s have pitch/mod wheels on them.

You do want to make sure you pick an 88 then sounds out the full MIDI velocity to 127, though. I don't think this is as much of a problem these days as it used to be.

One last thing Busch pointed out elsewhere is that the Kronos responds to release velocity in its pianos, and most 88s don't send it. I think it's probably a subtle thing, but would be something you might lose.
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Bruce Lychee
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
You do want to make sure you pick an 88 then sounds out the full MIDI velocity to 127, though. I don't think this is as much of a problem these days as it used to be.

One last thing Busch pointed out elsewhere is that the Kronos responds to release velocity in its pianos, and most 88s don't send it. I think it's probably a subtle thing, but would be something you might lose.


I currently have the 88 on order. I was planning to sell my CP1, but the more I think about it, I don't think I want to give up the refined action or great EP section on the CP1. I'm not that experienced with MIDI outside of basic setup and was wondering if release time is the same thing as release velocity?

Also, in terms of hooking up to the Kronos and an external PC running cubase, would I run standard MIDI between the CP1 and Kronos and USB from the Kronos to the PC?
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ScoobyDoo555
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That will work Cool
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Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

Bruce Lychee wrote:
I'm not that experienced with MIDI outside of basic setup and was wondering if release time is the same thing as release velocity?

No... release velocity (or as it would appear on a MIDI implementation chart, "Velocty, Note Off") has to do with the ability to alter what happens to a sound depending upon whether or raise your finger off the key slowly or quickly. On a piano sound, the damper to silence the note could fall more quickly if you lifted your finger off faster. (Of course I mean the simulation of the damper, there are no real dampers in there!)
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Bruce Lychee
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
Bruce Lychee wrote:
I'm not that experienced with MIDI outside of basic setup and was wondering if release time is the same thing as release velocity?

No... release velocity (or as it would appear on a MIDI implementation chart, "Velocty, Note Off") has to do with the ability to alter what happens to a sound depending upon whether or raise your finger off the key slowly or quickly. On a piano sound, the damper to silence the note could fall more quickly if you lifted your finger off faster. (Of course I mean the simulation of the damper, there are no real dampers in there!)


Thanks. So if the CP1 doesn't have release velocity, is that going to be a problem in controlling the sounds on the Kronos? What ends up happening to that parameter?
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Zeroesque
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

shap wrote:
I'm coming from a piano background, a hammer action keyboard is usually my first choice. I ordered a K88, but I want to get some work done and the delays are killing me. I have on-hand a competing synth with a high-quality weighted-action keyboard that I can use as a controller.

I'm wondering what I'll be losing if I switch my order to a K61 and drive it from the other keyboard? Conversely, if I stay with the K88 and occasionally find a need to drive it from a synth-action controller, what hassles will I be creating for myself that way?

The main things that occur to me as issues are the reach to the joysticks when I need them and the hassle factor when gigging out. Since I don't gig with a keyboard, the latter doesn't worry me that much.

Anything else I should be thinking about here? Is anybody out there actually doing this and able to speak from direct experience?

Thanks!

I have the Kronos 61 and am driving it with a Numa Nano. Both keyboards combined weigh 50lbs...less than many 88 controllers. This way, I'm able to have the Kronos on top and very close to the 88. If using a K88 and a 61 controller, you might have issues getting them close together, as you would need to see the K's screen (or you could put the K88 on top). Also, if I really want to go slim for a gig, rehearsal or writing session, I can just bring the 61 and have all of my sounds in a very portable package.

I like this setup a lot, and have noticed no disconnect in terms of playability or timing with piano playing (in fact, it's soooo satisfying). It does take a little bit to get used to grabbing the Kronos' controllers when playing on the 88 (I prefer weighted keys for pretty much everything except organ techniques), but this isn't because of distance to reach, merely controlling one keyboard while playing another. It's a mental thing with me, but one that I quickly got beyond.

Good luck...get a Kronos!!!
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Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

Bruce Lychee wrote:
So if the CP1 doesn't have release velocity, is that going to be a problem in controlling the sounds on the Kronos? What ends up happening to that parameter?

The Kronos will just see "Note Off." A velocity parameter isn't required, but Kronos can do something different of it sees one. That said, I don't know whether or not the CP1 has note off velocity, check its MIDI implementation chart. And either way, I expect the effect is subtle. I mean, it's subtle even on a real piano, at least in the context of actually playing a piece.
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Bruce Lychee
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
Bruce Lychee wrote:
So if the CP1 doesn't have release velocity, is that going to be a problem in controlling the sounds on the Kronos? What ends up happening to that parameter?

The Kronos will just see "Note Off." A velocity parameter isn't required, but Kronos can do something different of it sees one. That said, I don't know whether or not the CP1 has note off velocity, check its MIDI implementation chart. And either way, I expect the effect is subtle. I mean, it's subtle even on a real piano, at least in the context of actually playing a piece.


It seems that CP1 only has velocity on Note On. I don't know if that is enough of a reason to ditch the CP1 as a controller for the Kronos, but maybe something to consider. Do you think it might have a greater effect on some of the other sounds?
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Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

Bruce Lychee wrote:
It seems that CP1 only has velocity on Note On. I don't know if that is enough of a reason to ditch the CP1 as a controller for the Kronos, but maybe something to consider. Do you think it might have a greater effect on some of the other sounds?

AFAIK, it is only implemented in the piano and EP engines. Even on real pianos and EPs, as I said, the effect is subtle.

I haven't played a CP1, but I really like the action of the CP5, much more than Korg's RH3 action (at least as it is on the SV1). My guess is, personally, I'd prefer playing piano on a CP1 than on the Kronos' 88 board... that the benefit of the better feeling action would more than offset the loss of release velocity. But this is just an "educated guess" (not having played an actual Kronos 8Cool, and is a subjective judgment on my part regardless. But I will be surprised if we see many people saying that the Kronos 88 action is as good or better than the CP1. Of course, a CP1 is $5,000 for "just" a piano, so if it *didn't* feel better than a $3,800 workstation, I'd say something was wrong...
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Bruce Lychee
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Driving a K61 from external weighted keyboard? Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
AFAIK, it is only implemented in the piano and EP engines. Even on real pianos and EPs, as I said, the effect is subtle.

I haven't played a CP1, but I really like the action of the CP5, much more than Korg's RH3 action (at least as it is on the SV1). My guess is, personally, I'd prefer playing piano on a CP1 than on the Kronos' 88 board... that the benefit of the better feeling action would more than offset the loss of release velocity. But this is just an "educated guess" (not having played an actual Kronos 8Cool, and is a subjective judgment on my part regardless. But I will be surprised if we see many people saying that the Kronos 88 action is as good or better than the CP1. Of course, a CP1 is $5,000 for "just" a piano, so if it *didn't* feel better than a $3,800 workstation, I'd say something was wrong...


Thanks for the info. Very helpful. I have played the SV1 and I didn't think the action was comparable to the CP1. The CP1 is a real joy to play and a very refined stage board. Plus I like the superior materials and build quality for my main playing board. I think I may have to keep the CP1. It will also allow me to have a synth action on the Kronos.
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shap
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:07 pm    Post subject: Alternatives to P95 Reply with quote

dangerousdave wrote:
I think I'm going to sell it, and put the money towards a P-95...


You can probably pick up a used keyboard in the Yamaha P series on EBay or Craigslist pretty cheap. None of them are going to match the piano sound of the Kronos, so the only reason to move "up" the line is the keybed, and most of the later ones are pretty similar. We bought my son a P-140 (got a deal on a mildly damaged unit). I have it side-by-side with a Motif XF, and the keybeds are nearly interchangeable.

But having said that, I don't know about release velocity. Does anybody know which units (if any) in the P- series send release velocity? What about the Motif XF?
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