Korg Forums :: View topic - Lets discuss Kronos BUILD QUALITY:

Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Lets discuss Kronos BUILD QUALITY:
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11

This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

jahrome
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:26 am Post subject:

StephenKay wrote:

jahrome wrote:

As far as the data wheel...pulling it off isn't the issue. As you pointed out, you can pull off the data wheel off other workstations. The question is..do they come off during normal use? I would guess no.

Right. So hence, there is no problem with the construction or design of the data wheel, it simply isn't quite tight enough. All of them can be pulled off. Just, they are tighter. Doesn't matter what they are made of. It could be made out of solid gold, if the tolerance of the part meeting the part that grips it isn't tight enough, then it might be loose and come off. Surely you can see the logic of that? Korg is going to send you one that is tighter, I'm sure. Problem solved. If you don't like waiting, since you are in Tokyo Japan, maybe you could just take a drive (or train) over to Korg, they're not that far from you, you know. Wink

Korg Inc.
4015-2 Yanokuchi
Inagi-City, Tokyo
206-0812 Japan

Inagi-City is within driving distance..about 30 minutes. Give me a POC and I will drive there myself to pick up the data wheels. And I would be happy to post how great Korg's customer service is. Until then, I am more than happy to keep discussing the design of the data wheel. I don't need a solid gold one. As I said many times before, M3 and Triton Studio's data wheel are perfect.

I will also re-iterate. There are numerous other threads forum members can read and not be annoyed. I've made this point clear and respectfully. Obviously some of you can't or won't let it go as well. That is why we are still discussing this.
_________________
Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000.

StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Approved Merchant
KARMA Developer<br>Approved Merchant

Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:30 am Post subject:

jahrome wrote:

As I said many times before, M3 and Triton Studio's data wheel are perfect.

Right, they are "tighter". Only real difference.

Quote:

Obviously some of you can't or won't let it go as well. That is why we are still discussing this.

I don't see *you* dropping the discussion.

BTW, have you tried contacting Korg to see if you can pick up a replacement? Not my job to supply you with a POC.

81 42 379 5771
_________________
Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com

jahrome
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:55 am Post subject:

StephenKay wrote:

jahrome wrote:

As I said many times before, M3 and Triton Studio's data wheel are perfect.

Right, they are "tighter". Only real difference.

Quote:

Obviously some of you can't or won't let it go as well. That is why we are still discussing this.

I don't see *you* dropping the discussion.

BTW, have you tried contacting Korg to see if you can pick up a replacement? Not my job to supply you with a POC.

81 42 379 5771

I assume you have all three of these keyboards. If so, you know there is a big difference. I won't pretend to know the costs of the specific designs. But the quality of the M3 and Triton Studio data wheels feel significantly better than the Kronos.

Since you seem so heavily invested in this conversation and appear to be so knowledgeable...plus the fact you have taken the time to post the address...asking for a POC is certainly different from saying it is your job to provide one.

And why would I drop this discussion? I don't have the new data wheels in hand..and you are still here to further this discussion.
_________________
Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000.

StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Approved Merchant
KARMA Developer<br>Approved Merchant

Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:02 am Post subject:

jahrome wrote:

I have all of them. My comment is that, if the Kronos wheel hadn't come off (for you), then this wouldn't be an issue.

Quote:

Since you seem so heavily invested in this conversation and appear to be so knowledgeable...plus the fact you have taken the time to post the address...asking for a POC is certainly different from saying it is your job to provide one.

OK, maybe I don't know what you mean by POC. I thought it was like some kind of a purchase order, or parts request order, I must admit I couldn't figure it out from the acronym.

Quote:

And why would I drop this discussion? I don't have the new data wheels in hand..and you are still here to further this discussion.

Actually, I would prefer to not further the discussion, but that is impossible with you, who continues on and on about it. Korg said they would send you (and any others with the same problem) new data wheels - and yet you continue on and on here about this. What is it? Why can't you wait a few weeks to get new wheels?
_________________
Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com

jahrome
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:14 am Post subject:

StephenKay wrote:

jahrome wrote:

I have all of them. My comment is that, if the Kronos wheel hadn't come off (for you), then this wouldn't be an issue.

Quote:

OK, maybe I don't know what you mean by POC. I thought it was like some kind of a purchase order, or parts request order, I must admit I couldn't figure it out from the acronym.

Quote:

And why would I drop this discussion? I don't have the new data wheels in hand..and you are still here to further this discussion.

Point of Contact (POC).....I am sorry..I thought that was a common acronym.

In order to drop this specific discussion, you would have to not contribute to it. The topic of this thread is build quality right? Anything else would be off topic. So I received an email indicating I would receive them when they are in stock...mid July which is two months after I purchased my keyboard and reported the problem. Great. Reports are that the problem has been fixed with new models being shipped out. Hmmm...well, I would be happy if I received a new data wheel this week or simply supply me with a new keyboard that doesn't have the problem...like the one you have. Until that happens, I will continue this conversation with you...in this thread only..as it is directly related to the topic.
_________________
Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000.

RonF
Platinum Member

Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:17 am Post subject:

jahrome wrote:

In your opinion. In your opinion. In your opinion. Such a simple thing....IMO....changes your whole tone to respectful and considerate, and changes the point you are making from "sensationalism" into "fair and balanced".

I have all three of those keyboards. IMHO, the M3 and Triton data wheels are not "significantly better"....rather they are significantly *different*. Now that I am growing accustomed to the KRONOS, having used it some 100 hours in the past 2 weeks......I am liking the KRONOS data wheel quite a bit. Just had to change my gesture with it a bit, from the "finger dimple" gesture, into the "ribbed side" gesture. Once I made that adjustment, I'm just as efficient with the KRONOS, and frankly, I kinda like the whole "newness" of the KRONOS experience. Its a marvelous U.I., data wheel and all. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. YMMV.

StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Approved Merchant
KARMA Developer<br>Approved Merchant

Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:27 am Post subject:

jahrome wrote:

Point of Contact (POC).....I am sorry..I thought that was a common acronym.

here's the thing about acronyms:

Acronym Definition
POC Point Of Contact
POC Particulate Organic Carbon
POC Port Of Call
POC Piece Of Cake
POC Paid Outside of Closing (real estate)
POC Pile Of Crap
POC Proof Of Concept
POC People of Color
POC Point of Care
POC Point of Care (healthcare industry)
PoC Push to Talk Over Cellular (cellular telephony)
POC Postal Operations Council (Universal Postal Union)
POC Pirates of the Caribbean (movie)
POC Plan of Care
POC Philippine Olympic Committee
POC Proof of Claim (insurance industry)
POC Plan of Correction
POC Person of Color
POC Percentage-Of-Completion
POC Ports of Call (computer game)
POC Policy Oversight Committee
POC Physical Optics Corporation
POC Professional Officer Course
POC Physical Organic Chemistry
POC Piece of Crap
POC Plano Oficial de Contabilidade (Portuguese: Accountancy Official Plan)
POC Point of Compliance
POC Proceeds of Crime (Canadian legal term)
POC Point of Connection (Irrigation Design, Landscape Architecture, Water Management)
POC Prisoner of Conscience
POC Power Converter
POC Purchase Order Change (EDI)
POC Paid on Call (firefighting)
POC Payload Operations Center
POC Passion of the Christ (movie)
POC Privately Owned Conveyance
POC Pen of Chaos (French website)
POC Pakistan Origin Card
POC Product of Conception (genetics testing)
POC Porsche Owners Club
POC Personnel Operations Center
POC Portable Object Compiler
POC Point of Commencement (legal description)
POC Point of Call
POC Pump Off Control
POC Probability of Causation
POC Psychological Operations Company
POC Pollutant of Concern
POC Pulse Of Capitalism
POC Petty Officer Cadet
POC Point on Curve (surveying)
POC Polar Cod (FAO species name code )
POC Proof of Closure (switch for a valve or acuator)
POC Platoon Operations Center
POC Product of Combustion
POC Position of Comfort
POC Production Office Coordinator (film and television industry)
POC Potential Officers Course (UK)
POC Parole Outpatient Clinic
POC Personal Oxygen Concentrator
POC Performance Objectives and Criteria
POC Parents of Ostomy Children
POC Precursor Organic Compound
POC Passage of Conflict (fictitious location; Dark Age of Camelot online game)
POC Person On Call
POC Processor Outage Control (CCS #7 & ITU-T)
POC Pissed Off Customer
POC Peace Observation Commission (UN)
POC Preliminary Operational Capability
POC Metal Powder Cutting (welding)
POC Point of Concept
POC Pu`u `O`o Cone (Hawai'i)
POC Proyectos de Obra Civil (Spanish)
POC Port of Convenience
POC Posterior Circulation Syndrome (medical)
POC Preliminary Operational Concept
POC Pissed Off Chick
POC Person on Cocaine
POC Player-Owned City (role-playing clan)
POC Professional Officer Candidate
POC Paxson Oil Company
POC Project Overview Committee
POC Power of Connecting
POC Project Officer Coordinator (FEMA)
POC Percent of Original Charge
POC Property of Canada
POC Parent of Child
POC Pulmonary Opacity Code
POC Particulate Oxidation Catalyst (automotive emissions reduction)
POC Public Operators Code
POC Person of Conscience
POC Procurement Order Cycle
POC Pack of Chihuahuas (band)
POC Parameter Order Change
POC Pentecostals of Cary (Cary, NC)

Point of Contact? OK. Not even in the list, but now I get it.

Hmm. I can't give you the names of the people I work with, because they are engineers. I suggest you call the number and request tech support.

Quote:

In order to drop this specific discussion, you would have to not contribute to it.

Why? I've refuted your points.

Quote:

The topic of this thread is build quality right? Anything else would be off topic. So I received an email indicating I would receive them when they are in stock...mid July which is two months after I purchased my keyboard and reported the problem. Great. Reports are that the problem has been fixed with new models being shipped out. Hmmm...well, I would be happy if I received a new data wheel this week or simply supply me with a new keyboard that doesn't have the problem...like the one you have. Until that happens, I will continue this conversation with you...in this thread only..as it is directly related to the topic.

Are you really incapable of using the keyboard as it is, now, without a data wheel? Or to be more exact, a data wheel that will normally work, unless you press too hard on it and cause it to pop off?
_________________
Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com

Last edited by StephenKay on Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total

RonF
Platinum Member

Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:27 am Post subject:

jahrome wrote:

In order to drop this specific discussion, you would have to not contribute to it.

Why don't we all just post up one time that we agree to drop it, right now. I'm willling. One post...."agreed". End.

What do ya say?

jahrome
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:39 am Post subject:

It is accurate to say the M3 and Triton's data wheels are significantly different. I stand by my opinion that they are significantly better. I am sorry but I wouldn't believe anyone that claims they prefer Kronos' data wheel over the design of the Oasys, M3, or Triton. The finger dimple is a small but significant part of a data wheel's design. Why change what's been perfected? @Mr Kay, None of those acronyms would make much sense in the context of the conversation. I am happy and willing to continue talking about this. You can refute everything I wrote. But it doesn't change the fact that the design of the data wheel is flawed and the previous designs were better. This is based upon the fact I can't find a single forum post indicating the Oasys, M3, or Triton Studio had faulty data wheels. I do have additional keyboards and workstations that all have data wheels that do not pop out no matter how hard you press them. Kronos is not one of them...even the M50 is better. _________________ Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000.

EXer
Platinum Member

Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Location: France

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:51 am Post subject:

StephenKay wrote:

Steven, with all due respect, I believe you're missing something.

First, let me say that my English may not be as accurate as I want to express my point of vue, but I'll try nevertheless.

From what I understand, you say that the issue lies in the making only, and that there is no design flaw.

I could not disagree more.

I consider normal use to press on one side of the top of the wheel with one finger to spin it because it's the best way to spin it continuously until the wanted value is reached. As a consequence, the wheel has to bear a torque that is *perpendicular* to its axis.

The best design to cope with this type of constraint is a wheel with a shaft, where all the perpendicular torque I mentioned before is beared by the resistance of the shaft to flexion. And this resistance can be made as high as necessary by sizing the shaft properly.

In addition, the wheel also has to allow for removing when needed (e.g. for maintenance of the board).

With a shaft, the upper part of the wheel can sit without too much tightness to allow pulling off without compromising the resistance to perpendicular torque, which is beared by the shaft not depending on how tight the wheel sits on it.

With a shaftless design, like the one Korg chose, the plastic notches have to carry out 2 contradictory functions :
1. to resist to a torque perpendicular to the axis due to the normal use I mentioned before, which implies they are tight enough to bear this constraint
2. to allow for removal, which implies they are loose enough to allow for pulling off

From an engineer's point of vue, this is a technically and functionnally lesser design because it implies a compromise. And the designers are aware of that, evidence being that they omitted a finger notch that precisely encourages the user to spin the wheel by pressing one finger on one side of the top of the wheel.

That is for the facts.
___

Now, my opinion:

As I said before, in fairness to the manufacturers I fully understand they have a tough job balancing additional features and quality level vs. costs.

Early Kronos owners raised the issue on this forum. Korg had to react, and to their credit, they did. But I keep thinking Korg made a mistake by cutting costs on this wheel and hence taking the risk to lose the good image they have been building for 20+ years with instruments like the Trinity and the Triton. To save a few bucks they played a dangerous game: it takes much less time to lose the customers' confidence than to build it.

That said, as a prospective Kronos buyer I hope this issue will be fixed for good.

Last edited by EXer on Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total

StephenKay
KARMA Developer
Approved Merchant
KARMA Developer<br>Approved Merchant

Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:52 am Post subject:

jahrome wrote:

It is accurate to say the M3 and Triton's data wheels are significantly different. I stand by my opinion that they are significantly better. I am sorry but I wouldn't believe anyone that claims they prefer Kronos' data wheel over the design of the Oasys, M3, or Triton. The finger dimple is a small but significant part of a data wheel's design. Why change what's been perfected?

That's your opinion. A finger dimple - well, OK, but that's not what we've been talking about here. First, you say the mechanical aspects of the wheel are no good. Now, apparently, it's that it has a dimple.

Quote:

@Mr Kay,
None of those acronyms would make much sense in the context of the conversation.

That may be so, but I also didn't know what you meant by POC. So I tried looking it up.

Quote:

I am happy and willing to continue talking about this. You can refute everything I wrote. But it doesn't change the fact that the design of the data wheel is flawed and the previous designs were better.

Your opinion.

Quote:

This is based upon the fact I can't find a single forum post indicating the Oasys, M3, or Triton Studio had faulty data wheels.

They were tighter. Certain Kronos wheels don't fit as tight, and Korg has acknowledged that, and will fix all of them. What's your problem?
_________________
Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com

theshinenz
Full Member

Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Posts: 240

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:05 am Post subject:

I'm over hearing bout this issue....I vote we stop the thread.

jahrome
Senior Member

Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:08 am Post subject:

StephenKay wrote:

jahrome wrote:

Quote:

@Mr Kay,
None of those acronyms would make much sense in the context of the conversation.

That may be so, but I also didn't know what you meant by POC. So I tried looking it up.

Quote:

Your opinion.

Quote:

This is based upon the fact I can't find a single forum post indicating the Oasys, M3, or Triton Studio had faulty data wheels.

They were tighter. Certain Kronos wheels don't fit as tight, and Korg has acknowledged that, and will fix all of them. What's your problem?

I can see the humor you are trying to inject in the conversation. Noted.

The data wheel is not a great design no matter how you "spin" it. (pun intended). Compared to all the previous Korg flagship workstations...everything about Kronos' data wheel is subpar..mechanical, size, the fact that there is no dimple, etc., etc. I am sorry but you can't convince me or any owner of the aforementioned keyboards otherwise.

What's my problem? I told you. I have a broken data wheel. Can I use Kronos without a data wheel? Should I have to? Yes, I can use Kronos without the data wheel. I would have to use the value slider, number keys, or they up/down cursor buttons. These are options but not ideal.

When the problem is actually fixed, only then will it no longer be an issue. The only people that have a problem with this thread are those that it doesn't effect..such as those that don't own the keyboard...and those that own the keyboard but claim they don't have any problems.
_________________
Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000.

Sharp
Site Admin

Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:24 am Post subject:

Quote:

When the problem is actually fixed, only then will it no longer be an issue.

The problem has been officially addressed by KORG and you will get a new data wheel you can simply just pop into the opening.

So... focus your energy in communicating with KORG and your Dealer. You have said more than enough on all this here. The thread is a waste of bandwidth at this point and disruptive.

Display posts from previous:

	Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos	All times are GMT Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11
Page 11 of 11

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum