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shap Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011 Posts: 194 Location: US northwest
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: A Voicing Puzzle |
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This isn't a good or bad thing; it's more a question I've been pondering.
Sit down at your favorite synth and pull up an Alto Sax patch. Play C0 (or the lowest 'C' on your keyboard). Note that you hear a sound. Whatever that sound is, it sure as heck didn't come from an Alto Sax. If it came from a physically modeled alto sax, the model has been stretched beyond reason.
Aside from the problem of bad labeling, I have no problem with this musically. It may not be an Alto Sax, but it's a perfectly good sound. Transposition gets awkward when the implemented note range of an instrument on the keyboard is restricted to the "real" instrument, and I recognize that as an issue.
My question is: when you selected "alto sax", were you actually looking for an alto sax, or were you looking for an approximation that carries across the full range of the keyboard? Do you want an approximation, or the real thing? Or perhaps both, suitably labeled? Would it be sufficient to have a "stretched" sample where transposition within reason was enabled, but not beyond reason?
It mostly matters because it goes to the question of sampling. I can sample an Alto Sax in high fidelity, but there's no way I can sample it playing C0.
What is it that people really want here? _________________ Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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mm-pro Full Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2002 Posts: 200 Location: Portland, Maine USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: |
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On some days I would be looking for a replica of an alto sax. On another day, something in the sax family that sounds a bit off, maybe a bit creepy.
So, for me having more resources is better than less, even if it means pushing the boundaries of realism.
Regards,
MM _________________ Korg Gear: (2) Kronos, PS3100, (2) MaxiKorg, PE1000, Z1Ex, MS20M,(2) OASYS-PCI, Synthe Pedal, Wavedrum WD-1, Prophecy, SQ1, 2600FS, M3M |
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billbaker Platinum Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 2206 Location: Vienna, Virginia, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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To me the quandary can be summed up by the phrase "for certain values of..."
I'll audition an alto sax sound. One note? Cool. Nice, mellow, clean legato phrase within an octave. It sounds like an alto sax "for certain values of" alto sax.
The same sound is a completely useless cheese-fest in another musical context.
Rather than sampling individual saxes I think the approach would be better served by tone or volume based samples that would use the whole family and span the entire keyboard - "growl", "honk", "mellow", "sweet", "dark", etc.
Those are saxes I could find musical uses for right away, with less frustration and more synthesis possibilities.
BB _________________ billbaker
Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon... |
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Gribs
Joined: 20 Apr 2010 Posts: 25
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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This is very entertaining. I have come to the conclusion and to accept that I am as much or more interested in the technology, process and success or failure at making weird noises as I am in making music. It takes all kinds I suppose.
Sounding realistic has never been high on my list though. I would rather mangle the sounds into something else that, as was said sounds sorta like a sax but different.
I am pretty jazzed up about Mod-7. I went through the tutorials and am taking a look at a bunch of the factory patches. Being able to put a woodwind PCM through wave-shaping, ring mod, and FM is very cool. There are some factory flute patches that are like that, and I am trying to learn to get the same sort of effects. Some of the factory patches are just mind-boggling and I really wonder how the heck someone figured out how to get that particular sound (whichever one it is). _________________ Korg Kronos, iElectribe, iMS20
Waldorf Q Phoenix, Blofeld, Largo
Moog Voyager, VX-351, CP-251
Roland RD700-GX
NI Komplete, Kore, Maschine
Eurorack modular that never ceases to grow |
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ldascanio Full Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2005 Posts: 169 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: A Voicing Puzzle |
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shap wrote: |
.....Do you want an approximation, or the real thing? Or perhaps both, suitably labeled? Would it be sufficient to have a "stretched" sample where transposition within reason was enabled, but not beyond reason?
It mostly matters because it goes to the question of sampling. I can sample an Alto Sax in high fidelity, but there's no way I can sample it playing C0.
What is it that people really want here? |
I'm on the side of having sounds set for the whole range of keys and use it as needed. In the cases you try to sound as realistic as possible you cannot just choice an instrument. You also need to know a "little" about this instrument. It's important to know if you can play it monophonically or polyphonically, how many notes you can play at the same time (like not trying to play 7 notes in a classic guitar), articulations you can or cannot do with the real instrument, if glissando is possible or not, etc,etc.
Register of the real instrument (lower and higher notes playable) is also important if you like to sound real. In such cases just play the keys in the right range even if lower or higher keys will also play a sound.
Rgds. _________________ Leo
OASYS 88 #000312
KRONOS 61 #003946
KORG Z1, ROLAND PK-5 |
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EXer Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 558 Location: France
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: A Voicing Puzzle |
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shap wrote: | My question is: when you selected "alto sax", were you actually looking for an alto sax, or were you looking for an approximation that carries across the full range of the keyboard? |
I never select "alto sax" on a synth (nor "tenor sax", let alone "bari sax"). I have never heard a synth sounding like a real sax. Never. Not even the Yamaha VL generator played with a wind controller, and yet it's the closest to the real thing I have ever heard.
Btw, I'm a keyboard *and* sax player (Eb: alto and bari).
____
Interesting thread, nevertheless. Many kbd players are not aware of the tessitura (note range) of real acoustic instruments. |
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Hanon_CTS Full Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2011 Posts: 249
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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: excellent observation! |
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Hi shap,
that's an excellent observation!
Whenever I select a sound approximation, I'm usually looking for it in a range similar to the real instrument, I wouldn't even notice if it just stopped playing before I ran out of keys on the keyboard.
I'm not sure that I really need a soprano tuba.
Cheers, Hanon _________________ I used to play Korg instruments, then I took an arrow to the knee. |
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