 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
NuSkoolTone
Approved Merchant
Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 1069
|
 Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| bulusglo wrote: | I like the analogy made by Sharp and the software aspect noticed by Scott.
Is it true that Korg Kronos Operating System is based on an Linux Kernel ?
This is stated here in wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg_Kronos
I wonder how much common software there is between Kronos and music oriented Linux distributions (http://www.linux-sound.org/distro.html). I won't be surprised to learn that Korg participated to some open source project.
At the end of the day, synthesizers have always been computers with processors, OS and softs, the processor having more or less hard coded routines. Korg has taken a nice technical decision by coming to linux. They could switch to a computer based platform easier than Yamaha or Roland today. (This is not new at Korg - VST Legacy suite, OASYS ..., I do like Korg's strategic choices as far I can see). |
I agree embedded solutions is the way to go and it's nice to see Korg taking that route. It's my belief that most are actually the latest motifs are on top of linux as well AFAIK.
The bottom line to me is if you just use a standard OS made for the desktop and throw a couple of "Keyboard apps" on top of it, it's pretty much a loss and misses the point. On REAL keyboards, there IS no "desktop" you are simply running the main program that interfaces with the hardware and that's IT. Though it may sound limiting, that's how it SHOULD be. It reduces overhead and housekeeping because you aren't including things you DO NOT NEED.
What separates Korg and other MI companies et al...is not just the technology that's proprietary to them (Samples, Modeling etc...) but also their expertise in implementation. From a technical POV, is there really THAT much difference from say a Kronos and a PC running legacy collection, a DAW for recording/sequencing, and a soft sampler? No, not really. What korg has done though is made a custom implementation of the technology that makes it LEAN, RELIABLE, PORTABLE, and FAST. THIS is worth a LOT to a professional. A computer running these apps would NEVER cut it in a live situation especially!
You CAN get results with all the computer stuff, though there's a lot of TIME necessary to research which hardware will get optimum results and configuration. Many of us have better things to do and just want to get to work...
_________________
Korg: KRONOS 73, M50-61, 01W/r
Yamaha: Motif XS7, FS1R
Kawai K5000S, Roland JD-990 w/Vintage Synth |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
BillW
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 933
Location: Northern Virginia
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| NuSkoolTone wrote: |
I agree embedded solutions is the way to go and it's nice to see Korg taking that route. It's my belief that most are actually the latest motifs are on top of linux as well AFAIK. |
This is true...the Motif's have been running on Linux since the XS.
_________________
Korg Kronos 61 (2); Kurzweil PC4; Casio Privia PX-350m; Macbook Pro |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: An apology, and a disclosure |
|
|
| EvilDragon wrote: | | synthguy wrote: | | By the way. For the record, I think Bill Gates is a crook and needs to be hung from something for a good long time. |
But certainly not a bigger crook than Steve f*ck*ng Jobs. |
It depends on what you mean by that.
Steve Jobs didn't steal the core code for CP/M from... now I forget who was developing it. Bill wasn't all that good a programmer - and boy, does it show with Windoze, but he was a very clever opportunist. Having made off with his prize, dug from printouts in the company dumpster, he went on to create a software empire, notorious for producing a product in a perpetual beta state, and depending on the public to performance test it for them. Endlessly. And for a LOT of money. Not an impossible amount, but for what you get, almost criminal. How much is Linux again?
Are you aware that Microsoft kept selling known defective XBox360 game consoles for more than a year, even when it was known internally that the failure rate had approached 70%?? I'd like to know how many Apple products had anywhere near that high a failure rate for almost two years.
Die Microsoft die... anyhow...
As for the proper thread subject, I have no idea when Mr Shapiro's idea will catch on. Lord knows, that side has been fighting for attention since the days of the Pentium 1 PC. The Muse Receptor, the Groove X, nEko and StudioBlade show promise. Lionstracs are showing the most forward thinking, and have evidently come up with a formula for a hardware shell that works. Lightning fast SSD streaming and the ability to run a number of clusters of apps is very advanced, depending on ram and horsepower.
Still... the killer apps are kind of lacking. Especially since most people going the music computing route are looking to do it with a much cheaper music PC or Mac solution. Mac, less so, but then you get what you pay for. Sure, the Receptor, SBlade and Groove X can be thrown on a keyboard stand - gently, but most people seem to be of a mind to keep the computer in the studio, and either sample the really tricky stuff or just program similar patches on hardware synths, mostly VAs and romplers.
The hardware guys are just darn cooler and more capable. Especially the Kronos, with those nine proprietary engines running in a massive keyboard dongle. Hey, I've been envisioning the modular approach since the late 80s, with rackmount modules of various sizes, rather like the Fairlight and Synclavier, and hooked up to various controller keyboards of ever increasing complexity and with more performance options. I'm dying for a polypressure keyboard.
Memo to the Big Three Plus One: produce a few synths with polypressure keyboards, or well endowed controllers, and I'll buy two, no question. And for pity's sake, WORK ON MIDI 2!!
When will we see anything like this? I don't know. With the examples I mentioned, it's just not gaining any traction with musicians. We don't want the best VST synths and sample players in a generic shareware DAW environment like Reaper. What do we want?
The Motif engine.
The Fantom/Jupiter-80 engine.
The VAST engine.
The Kronos engines.
With maaaaybee some soft synths like Arturia's analog emulations on the side (YES please! Especially Moog Modular V, Prophet V and CS-80 V). And having a DAW of our choice like Reaper, Studio One Pro or Cubase on board with a few in- and outputs and a roster of hot plugins would sure be nice as well.
I guess get those old school synthmakers to play, and I'll talk. 
_________________
PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| There are much better VSTis than Arturia's, though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: An apology, and a disclosure |
|
|
| synthguy wrote: |
When will we see anything like this? I don't know. With the examples I mentioned, it's just not gaining any traction with musicians. We don't want the best VST synths and sample players in a generic shareware DAW environment like Reaper. What do we want?
The Motif engine.
The Fantom/Jupiter-80 engine.
The VAST engine.
The Kronos engines.
|
I dunno....I think its an issue of redundancy. I look at neko, studio blade, and MUSE.....I predominantly see an expensive computer which is redundant to my Mac or PC. I can buy it....and it may be a "slick package" with some pros, but ultimately I can do everything it can do already on my computer with a controller. Is it REALLY more reliable?, perhaps.....but is it worth the price of the ticket just for that? For some, maybe...but not for the masses.
In fact, I think Korg has the *right* idea now. Keep it proprietary....but keep it fresh! Now, what IS fresh is a subjective idea, and for some, the offerings from these companies has long become stale. And this, more than anything, is because SONICALLY, we have already heard what technology can produce. There IS nothing NEW anymore....sound-wise.
I pointed this out in another thread recently......those who can remember the hay day of synth technology....when each NAMM show was more than a forum to display new products....but truly brand new SOUNDS. You would hear a new keyboard or module, and your jaw would drop because it was producing a sound you had never experienced before. The Mirage, D-50, DX-7, Wavestation.....these were remarkable breakthroughs in sonic technology. In those days you HAD to buy the latest and greatest if you wanted to keep up, and not be left behind.
Now-a-days.....its all about the U.I., the specs, the resolution, but the sounds you play through it.....you have heard it all before...and we all have umpteen examples of all of those sounds already...the new stuff just does it cleaner, better, sometimes easier. But your audience has heard it all before. KRONOS is no exception...for me its just the largest collection of technologies and performance features in one package.....in history, which makes it very desirable. But sonically...I've heard it all before.
So....sans a technological breakthrough that we have yet to perceive, which will tickle our ears and make us all run to purchase this marvel.....there seem to me to be only two paths for the big 3 1/2 to take.... 1. bigger better specs (such as KRONOS, which has set the bar on this). 2. More sonic power....ie: a wavestation engine. a Jupitor 8 engine, and CS80 engine.....you get the idea.
Its quite a thing that in THIS industry, the technological hay day seems to have come and past.....and now there is the ability to re-tap these resources....the R&D, the programming, the reputation, the marketing....and bring on a new generation of sonic excitement, by feeding on its own "swan song".
What do keyboards do? Ultimately, two things.....sounds, and performance features. The last 10 years has been mostly about the development of the performance features...simply because THAT technology has been developing upwardly. But sonically? Not so much.
If you have nothing NEW to sell.....then sell something old, tried and true....but do it BETTER. Korg got this idea....I think....and KRONOS embodies that. Hey, you have a cutting edge performance controller, with all the latest technology.... producing souped up versions of VA, FM, Modular, Modelling, and Sample synthesis....all old technologies made better....and fresh again. OMG, how HOT would a Wavestation or M1 or a Trinity or Prophecy be as future updates for the KRONOS (or some future Korg offering). Now that is exciting!
THIS is where Roland BLEW it, IMHO....with the Jupiter 80. To be fair...the thing has not even made it to market yet, and I certainly have never seen, heard, or played one...so BIG grain of salt. But had the J80 been a virtual reproduction of the J8........Katey bar the doors!!!!!
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nowtime
Full Member
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 216
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think it's possible, if Native Instruments gets their show together, that we could see something very exciting for keyboard players with a sister product to Maschine. A software/hardware hybrid that controls not only NI's Komplete, but any VST.
Yeah, it's still a softsynth and a laptop and a keyboard controller, nothing new, but NI really hit on a nerve with Maschine which is just damn fun! It is a grounbreaking combination of hardware and software experience. You do not need to look at the software (except for some saving and whatnot), and you do not need the hardware. But using both together, for me, just works well for the brain, eyes and hands. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Conway
Approved Merchant
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2433
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:44 am Post subject: Re: An apology, and a disclosure |
|
|
| shap wrote: | | In brief, the competitors now have to match Korg's build costs, and the only real way to do that is by shifting to commodity hardware coupled with software-implemented synthesis. So they will. Which means that Korg has just launched a global race for a standardized synthesizer/workstation platform. |
I've been a Yamaha user for 27 years. They must be kicking themselves over why the EX5 (with multiple synthesis) and their first 2 generations of Motifs (which accepted multi-synth plug ins) were getting stiff competition from Triton ROMpers!!!!
They dropped the plug ins, went to ROMpler only tech, for the last 2 Motif generations. Now, they are getting it handed to them by Korgs multi-synthesis Kronos!! When are they going to learn that people love touchscreens?
Anyway, my point being - I doubt there will be standardization, soon. An exception might be playing streaming piano sounds from SSD. I think others will jump on that.
I think Korg will be on top for a while. The great piano sounds will appeal to players and the synth engines will appeal to synthesists. There's always room for improvement - more articulation, more RAM, FX per patch (that remain in Song/Combi), full Patch in Combi editing, more polyphony, more realistic acoustic samples, more MIDI tracks, more Sequencer edit options.....and all for less money. It never ends.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Subpar
Junior Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Houston, TX
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
I dont know, I like the idea of a sofware/hardware hybrid, but for the most part its been done, and just for simplicity I prefer a single keyboard live. In the studio, sure, I use a crap load of VST's as well as my workstations, but for live, eliminating all possible points of failure is key. That is why I am excited about Kronos.
Now in terms of the future, the model that manufacturers should be going to is Apps. How about a Korg app store?
Korg will get revenue, devs get revenue, and so on.
It just seems that technology really advances when 1, more people are developing solutions, 2, its affordable to develop apps.
This to me is the problem with a hybrid VST/hardware controller. All in all, to develop VST's, its a much greater investment, just like software. To costly, lengthy, etc, etc, to develop. The entire MAC OS is moving down this path (and there are some great Music Apps) That is what apple has recognized.
I think this would really take off, cause I probably have 50 different ipad synths. Just imagine the ability to be able buy different music apps, engines, expansions, sounds, etc, all from the comfort of you workstation.
It could be the company who makes a universal OS, a music App store with thousands off people developing engines, expansions, etc, is in the driver seat.
just my 2 cents...
_________________
L8r
Dustin
Aka Subpar |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Macbook and a controller is still as good as it gets for me when playing live. Well, that and two iPads now...
...although it's fun to go minimalist now and then with just the MicroStation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nowtime
Full Member
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 216
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| What total latency (in milliseconds) do you play at rrrricky? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Indiscernible... I dont know how long in ms but latency is not an issue for me at all. Interface is a wee Edirol UA 101. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rrricky rrrecordo
Senior Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 448
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zero latency is only for monitoring when recording from audio inputs, the sound produced by a softsynth itself still needs to be processed and there can never be zero latency in that process. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
I did not intend to engage on this thread. It has become clear that I used a crucial term incorrectly, and that this is causing confusion and tension. Because of this, I want to correct my misuse of terms.
The term that I used incorrectly is "commodity hardware". What I actually meant was reusable hardware. That is: hardware that can be re-used in multiple synthesizer products - perhaps (hypothetically) even by multiple vendors - without change. Where I originally wrote "commodity hardware coupled with software-implemented synthesis", I should have written "reusable hardware coupled with software-implemented synthesis".
The line between "reusable" and "commodity" tends to be a very thin line. To see why, consider a "what if" scenario:
If somehow, by magic, a set of current-generation Roland or Yamaha or MOTU or RME converters were used to replace the converters in the KRONOS without changing the price, how many of you would change your purchase decision? [You could ask the same question about any workstation/synthesizer, which is part of my point.]
Some buyers would walk away from the KRONOS because of this change, and a roughly equal number would adopt the KRONOS because of this change. But in the end, all of these converters are "above threshold", and for most of us I suspect that the choice of synthesizer is more about the large differences in synthesis rather than the (relatively) small differences in converters. In fact, I suspect that for most buyers, the differences in user interface are more important than the differences in converter quality.
The point here is that (in my opinion) the differentiating value of the KRONOS and future synthesizers (in my opinion) no longer lies in hardware. It lies in the way that good synthesis and good interaction design gets embodied in the software and the interaction (button, display) support hardware. Note that software != VST. I do not think the future of [keyboard] synthesizers lies with the PC/DAW/VST path. I never intended to suggest that. They address different needs.
With this clarification made, some of you will agree and some will not (just as you did before). At least now you will have the chance to argue about the intended subject.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lando
Full Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
No, that only means that you can hear the audio you put in there with no latency (Direct Monitoring). With VI:s you will definitly get latency, if you notice it or not depends on how sensitive you are to latency in general and what sounds you use.
With my setup (Motu mkIII Macbook pro Intel 2.66 Ghz duo) I get very noticable latency even tho Motu is obsessed with minimizing it. Pads and strings (Omnispcere etc) works great, but fast synths for electronic music, or pianos (who has a very fast attack) is troublesome for me and I prefer hardware for that.
Do note that Hardware synths have latency too, some definitly more than others. Nord are among the fastest (source on this is quite biased but they do feel fast) but I think that around 8ms is not uncommon from the big ones. This is never something the manufacters themseves mention of course. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
