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StephenKay
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ChrisP
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shap
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 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| CfNorENa wrote: | | shap wrote: | | I also use the ADAM A7's, which are good for diffferent reasons. |
Willing to elaborate? I ask because I'm seriously considering an upgrade from my KRK RP5s (not bad for the money, actually) to a pair of Adam A7Xs. According to internet babble, they've improved on the original design with better low end and a less fatiguing tweeter... |
I said some of it elsewhere but it was buried in with a bunch of other stuff, so sure. Obviously all of this is very subjective.
I own and use both the ADAM A7's (predecessor to the A7x) and the JBL 4328P's. Bought the A7's first, replacing some truly ancient Audix monitors. Later bought the LSR 4328P's for the sake of the room correction, expecting to sell the A7's to get some cash back out (the 4328Ps were just out, and a lot more expensive then). Ended up keeping both, because they do different things well. My wife was initially annoyed about that, so I A/B'd them for her. She's not deep into sound engineering, but even so she understood instantly why the A7's and EBay weren't going to be seeing each other any time soon.
For general listening, I tend to use the JBLs first ahead of the A7's. The JBLs sound good, they "translate" well (that is: I can listen on the JBLs and know what I'm going to hear in the car or the living room), and the room correction capability matters. The ADAMs translate much better for me, and they are less forgiving, so I prefer the A7's for mix engineering. Translation isn't something folks on this forum seem to mention when they talk about monitors, which surprises me some. My goal was to have monitors I could use with a DAW to engineer a professional-grade mix for a symphony. That may or may not not be the problem you are trying to solve, and between these two choices that quite possibly should influence your decision.
In both cases you'll want to make sure the monitor is isolated from the floor/desk. If you're not using stands, at least buy a set of the Auralex pads. Otherwise you aren't listening to your monitors. You're listening to your desk. 
The JBLs
The room correction stuff is amazing. Excerpt from the SoS review:
| SoS wrote: | | The system is able to apply a 3-12dB notch filter at any of 73 different centre frequencies between 20Hz and 160Hz (at 1/24th octave centres), with a bandwidth adjustable from 1.4 octaves to 0.09 octaves. The idea is that this filter will reduce the effects of the most prominent standing waves at the listening position, as measured using a supplied omnidirectional measurement mic (shown). |
What the SoS description doesn't say is that the profiling firmware can run different filters individually at each of the speakers in your system (it can handle anything up to an 8.2 configuration). They also don't mention that the individual bands can have different notch widths, which allows the profiling logic to allocate more, smaller bands at places in the spectrum where there are problems to be solved. The consequence is that the ability to finely shape the sound at the listening position is pretty amazing, both technically and subjectively.
Once it has self-configured, you can turn the correction on or off with a button. Put on a recording really think you know, sit down in front of the JBLs, and use the remote control to turn RMC on and off. You'll learn things about your room that you never knew were there. It's pretty stunning the first, second, and third time you do that. It can also be expensive, since after you do it you realize just how much better it would be to condition your room rather than work around its flaws.
The SoS review doesn't mention that you can also use the fine-grain EQ to adjust for your ears or to tune the monitors to different profiles during your mixing exercise. Using different EQ profiles doesn't interfere with the room correction.
The review also doesn't mention that the profiling technology can handle a mix and match of speakers across the 4xxxP line. So for example you can add the subwoofer, and maybe later add smaller speakers (like the 4326P's) for surround. You'll need to re-run the room profiler to account for the new speakers, but that's it.
If you audition the JBLs, insist that they run the room correction profiler right in front of you. It only takes about 30 seconds. Demo room racks get jostled a lot, and a 6 inch change in speaker or listener position matters for this kind of thing. So if profiling hasn't been run with the mic where you are standing, you aren't going to hear one of the main things that makes the JBL's really interesting.
The ADAMs
I have the A7's. The A7X is the successor, I've auditioned it, and I would expect similar pros and cons to show up in the studio. The A7X is noticeably better than the A7. Which was surprising, since the A7 remains one of the go-to reference monitors in a lot of professional studios. In light of which, I think it's pretty funny that Paul White's SoS review of the A7 reads 'better than lukewarm' while his review of the A7X reads closer to 'ecstatic'. It's actually pretty impressive. How many companies pull that kind of success, and then go out and pull of something noticeably better with the successor? SweetWater is presently steering people away from the ADAMs. In my view, that fact calls SweetWater into question, not ADAM.
The differentiating thing in the ADAM line is the folded ribbon tweeter. It gives a clarity and precision at the high end that penetrates a mix in a way that's hard to describe. Even compared to other speakers in the same tier (including the JBLs, by the way), you'll realize that you haven't ever heard the ride sample or the snare in the drum kit before. Also makes a huge difference for brass.
Where the JBLs translate well to my ears, the ADAMs translate perfectly. If you talk to people mixing movie sound tracks for a living, you'll find that a lot of them have a set of the ADAM A7's.
But when I say the ART tweeters "penetrate a mix", I really mean it. If you've engineered a mix at your DAW, and you screwed up somewhere, you're going to hear it. The ADAMs are rabidly unforgiving in a way that the JBLs (or for that matter anything else I've heard) can't match. Which is how I ended up keeping the A7's. I don't find the A7 tweeter fatiguing. The word I would use for it is "ruthlessly accurate". For my purposes, it's part of what makes these monitors effective as a mix engineering tool.
Concerning frequency response, your comment made me look harder at the specs on the A7X. There's no substitute on this for looking at the frequency response curve directly, and ADAM hasn't published the curve for the A7X. So we're left to wonder what the roll-off level is at 42Hz. My guess is they followed industry reporting practice, in which case the answer is -3dB. In practice, the A7 was acceptable with a 6.5" woofer. The A7X has a 7" woofer with a bigger voice coil, and it clearly outperforms the A7 on the low end. For comparison, the LSR4328P with an 8" woofer hits 43Hz at -3dB.
Lots of places in your area to go hear them. Because they need profiling, the JBLs are hard to evaluate usefully in the store.
If I Had to Pick One
For mix engineering I really like the configuration I have, but I'd go with the A7's (or the A7X's) ahead of the JBLs. This is because in a mix engineering context I really want to hear every problem, and the ADAMs give me that. For playing and recording, I prefer the JBLs. They are a little more forgiving, and the room correction helps a lot. If your room is already conditioned, the correction is less of a priority.
Interestingly enough, this review seems to arrive at the same conclusion. Look at what he says about the snares, for example. He's also right that the A7/A7X mid-range is very good. That's due to the ART tweeter design. And what he says about the "smile curve" is true, but when you aren't doing mix engineering, that smile curve is a good thing. He even goes on to talk about the A7X being "less forgiving".
The price difference here in the states isn't that big. A pair of 4328Ps is $1539. A pair of A7X's should be $1398. It's significant, but at this level it's probably not decisive for most buyers. He's also mistaken about the difference in bass response favoring the JBLs. That is true relative to the A7, which is clearly a monitor he knows well. It is not true relative to the A7X.
And in the end, he's pretty clear that even for him it comes down to what he's trying to mix. Remember this guy works in a well-conditioned space, so for him the room correction isn't a key capability. If your space is conditioned, that really changes things. At that point I'd by the A7X's without thinking twice about it. Similarly, if the room isn't conditioned, that's a major leg up for the JBLs.
Closing Thoughts
If you go an auditioning room, the JBLs and the ADAMs are definitely the two monitor families below $1500 apiece that will really stand out for you. Obviously the A8X will sound better than the A7X and such. You'll still feel coming away that KRK and the others do good work, but the qualitative difference will be pretty clear. More so for the A7X than for the JBLs. The A7X's will really stand out, but the reasons are part of why some people find them fatiguing.
The older A7 models's are still available and are now cheaper: $999 for a pair at music123 or GC.
At the next level up, the ADAM A77X at $1399 ea. (or the predecessor P33A at $1749 ea.) will convince you in seconds that everything else in the room belongs in a janitor's closet. It's way worse than night-and-day. If you even think you're going to be tempted to audition one of those, be smart and leave your credit card at home that day. Try to remember that after you sell your house to pay for them, you won't have a place to put them anyway. 
My K-88 should hopefully be arriving soon, and I'm planning to rig things so that I can A-B my keyboards on the one hand and my monitors on the other. I'll let you know which one seems to work better for what on the KRONOS for me, and why.
Stephen is absolutely right about subwoofers!
Sound on Sound reviews
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Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
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StephenKay
KARMA Developer
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Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| shap wrote: | | Stephen is absolutely right about subwoofers! |
Thank you. And right about Genelec as well. I auditioned the JBLs. Friend and associate has a studio with 5 of them + subwoofer (5.1). Bought Genelec. 'nuff said.
Anyway, it's all up to your ears (and budget)....
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Last edited by StephenKay on Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shap
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Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm looking at the photo of Stephen's room from his first link, and I'm feeling a lot better about the state of my room conditioning.
Thanks, Stephen!
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Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
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StephenKay
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Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| shap wrote: | I'm looking at the photo of Stephen's room from his first link, and I'm feeling a lot better about the state of my room conditioning.
Thanks, Stephen! |
Not sure what that's supposed to mean, it sounds derogatory, but the picture (check the angle of the photography) is taken from an attic hatchway - the room has 20 foot ceilings, and you cannot see (in the picture) the sound traps and bafflings mounted on the walls. My house was once a small church.
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shap
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| StephenKay wrote: | | shap wrote: | | I'm looking at the photo of Stephen's room from his first link, and I'm feeling a lot better about the state of my room conditioning. |
Not sure what that's supposed to mean, it sounds derogatory... |
Not intended that way at all. As you say, I couldn't see any conditioning. And if you could see my current space, you'd understand why that might make me feel better.
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Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
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CfNorENa
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Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 437
Location: SF Bay Area
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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@shap: many thanks for the detailed response. I had been considering either the Adams or the Dynaudio BM5As, but I suppose I'll have to give the JBLs a serious look, too.
@Stephen (and others): regarding the use of a subwoofer, there are some who say that in an untreated room (which mine is), it is better to mix *without* a sub. Also, what are your thoughts on combining a cheap sub with decent nearfields? I have a KRK RP10S which, in principle, I could combine with something like Adam A5Xs. But would the KRK "degrade" the sound quality of the monitors in a 2.1 configuration?
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Sina172
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by Sina172 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CfNorENa
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Location: SF Bay Area
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sina172 wrote: |
1) The materials are SO vastly different, that you can, potentially degrade your ADAM's.
And
2) As a result, it may not sound right. You'll certainly be be able to get the crossover frequencies to match up, but due to the materials, it probably won't sound right because they aren't "voice matched," if you will. |
Yes, these are exactly my concerns.
Anyone else want to chime in?
[hope this doesn't count as too serious a thread-hijack!]
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Bruce Lychee
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I've been using TACT advanced room correction systems for the last 7 years. I think room correction is amazing, especially when applied to multichannel systems, however nothing substitutes a properly treated room. Too much room correction via algorithms and sound gets compromised. It is really useful for determining what problems exist in an acoustic space, however once those problems are identified I would take steps to treat your room at least to some degree. Also, I would not use room correction when monitoring a mix because you will end up with a mix that sounds good as corrected. When you play that back on a "reference" system it might sound way off. There are some pretty cheap PC based room correction systems that can measure your room and make corrections if you don't want to spend the money on monitors with built in correction capability.
As for subwoofers and crossovers. Bass response can usually benefit from some equalization or correction. Crossovers shouldn't be that difficult via the sub or external, and if you are using decent monitors, you should be crossing over at a point where matching drivers isn't going to be the issue as much as the quality of the bass driver. My Velodyne DDs will match in any system, whereas I have heard cheap subs sound like crap even with their matched monitor.
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shap
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| CfNorENa wrote: | | I have a KRK RP10S which, in principle, I could combine with something like Adam A5Xs. |
Looks to me like CfNorENa is trading down on monitors to add the sub (perhaps to offset costs). If his choice is between the A7X or A5X+sub, which way should he go? How much mid-range (if any) will he lose by trading down from the A7X to the A5X, for example?
Subs are definitely the next addition I would make in my own studio. That's been in the queue, but it keeps getting interrupted by cross-country moves.  I'm probably just being ignorant and conservative, but I have to say that I'd be nervous about trading down on the monitors. The A7's really were a sweet spot in the lineup, and I imagine the same is true for the A7X.
I'm very interested to hear what more experienced folks like Sina, Bruce, and Stephen have to say about this trade-off. Always good to learn something new.
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Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
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shap
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Sina172 wrote: | | ...I sold them and got a brand new pair of VXT6's with TWO KRK K10S Subs for a stereo configuration. |
Stereo subs? I mean, if they're lying around, sure, but both the physics and the psycho-acoustics say that there shouldn't be much, if any, payoff to a stereo subwoofer configuration.
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Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys
Last edited by shap on Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shap
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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I just stumbled across a short article noting some of the limits of digital room correction. As I was writing up my description on the JBLs above, I found myself wondering about reflections, and suspecting that digital room correction probably can't do much in the time domain. Decided not to say anything, because I didn't really know and a lot of things that seem obvious from first principals turn out not to be true in practice. Turns out I was right. The article does a clear job explaining frequency domain vs. time domain effects.
The more hard surfaces you have in your room, the more reflections you'll get, and the more impact the time-domain issues will have as a consequence. The JBLs won't help much with that.
Aside: sufficiently clever digital correction actually could deal with time domain issues in principle. The technical problem is a little bit like running a convolution reverb in reverse.
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Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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Gargamel314
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I use a pair of Alesis M1Active 520's with my M3, and the sound is phenomenal. They're not terribly expensive, either ... around $200 for the pair. They give everything this incredible glow to the sound ... I would definitely recommend them for the KRONOS!
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