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MartinHines
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: promises promises |
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| jahrome wrote: | | I didn't say the Motif XF shipped with an editor. |
But you were questioning my statement that it is fairly normal for the editor to be released later than the keyboard. You mentioned three products that were released MANY years ago and had CDs shipped with them, while I mentioned two recent products, both which did not have editors that were "shipped with the keyboard".
Companies want to get these keyboards to the market as fast as possible, and an editor is always one of the last things to get done. The big advantage of not shipping a CD with the keyboard is it allows companies to have extra time to finish the editor, even it it gets released at the same time as the keyboard.
| jahrome wrote: |
And it doesn't matter if it was shipped or came as a download..the fact is, its available.
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Actually, it does matter because we are talking about timing. How long has the Motif XF been out on the market now?
In my quick search I could not determine if the Motif XF editor was available "Day One" (when the first keyboards were shipped), which is why I said I don't know. However, I do know the Kurzweil editors were released after the product was shipping.
I still don't think releasing the editor "on time" would justify holding up shipping of the keyboard.
| jahrome wrote: |
Regardless, you can not defend false advertisement so stop bashing the gentleman who wants what was "promised" :
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What "false advertising"? There is none. The Kronos advertising mentions there is a Kronos Plug-In Editor that is a free download. It does not state "guaranteed to be available as soon as the first keyboards are shipped".
Kronos owners were promised an editor -- and they will get one.
Again, people who aren't prepared to deal with a few minor problems should NOT be early adopters.
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Last edited by MartinHines on Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cello
Platinum Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2152
Location: Glasgow, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Jahrome - please read the OASYS forum about broken promises (EXf, Open System...) - and it cost well over double what you have paid, so imagine, for just a moment, what those new O users felt - for 6 years. (Not me, just to be clear - I only got mine a year ago and no promises were made to me that I felt were broken - other than with the release of the K itself, which is a long and tired story now).
The Kronos is just out. Korg has not yet failed to deliver its promise of a K editor. It's just not ready yet - but that's only my view. Take it or leave it.
But if after 6 years you still don't have your editor, then I'll admit you're right.
And by the way, as someone who has tried the K61 and ordered one, and has an OASYS is it okay with you that I can talk about both? Or is there a specific club you want me to join first?
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Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5, |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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I am sorry. It doesn't matter what has been done in the past. If a website indicates a product has an editor, any reasonable person would assume it is immediately available. So Korg's website is misleading no matter how you try to spin it.
As far as the Motif XF, I am not 100% sure if the editor was available (via CD/DVD or download)....but I would gamble and say it was as the editor is a key feature for the Motif series for years.
Also my Fantom G shipped with an editor on CD.
Those are my examples.
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Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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EXer
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: promises promises |
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| jahrome wrote: | | The only reason why I didn't opt for the Motif XF is because it has even less sample RAM than the Kronos...and its sampler is too cumbersome as compared to the Kronos. |
The reason why I didn't opt for the Motif XF (that was before the Kronos came out) is that it doesn't have AN, VL, FM and FDSP syntheses. It's a shame that Yamaha didn't include these in the Motif in the same way they did in the EX5 (FM excepted), and it's an even greater shame that Yamaha have dropped the PLG cards completely since the XS, turning these instrument into pure romplers. That said, no one can deny that the Motifs XS/XF sound damn good. The same instrument with integrated alternate syntheses, sample streaming from an SSD, articulate voices from the Tyros and a touch screen with legible fonts would be a serious competitor to the Kronos.
Btw I'm still waiting for the Kronos to be available in France to test play one. What are Korg Europe doing? |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| jahrome wrote: | | any reasonable person would assume... |
So wait, now you ARE talking for the majority of people?
SO confused...
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Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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drchris
Full Member
Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 178
Location: Memphis, TN
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| jahrome wrote: | | If a website indicates a product has an editor, any reasonable person would assume it is immediately available. So Korg's website is misleading no matter how you try to spin it. |
I'll agree with Jahrome on this one. If it is an advertised feature and doesn't specifically state that it is not available until a particular date, one would assume that it IS available when the keyboard arrives. This is misleading.
The Korg folk have remained silent on this one so far (likely because it's not their area), but it would be appropriate for there to be a posting on Korg's website indicating that this is a feature that will be available in the future. Even better would be a specific date that it will be released.
This is definitely something that Korg can and should have done a better job on.
Would I have still ordered my K88 (for which I am still waiting) if the website said the download would be available next year? Sure! Will I love it even without the software? Sure! But proper advertisement and disclosure is still reasonable to expect.
Chris |
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synthguy
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 661
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:02 am Post subject: |
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I'll say as someone who won't be able to enjoy a Kronos for a while,
and considering Japan has recently undergone a disaster on the scale of a small war, and in their manufacturing area - heck, they had to work around power rationing and threats from a failing reactor farm!
I'd personally be darned glad for whatever I got from KORG right now.
As for his thread, I've said my peace on the matter, so peace out.
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:06 am Post subject: |
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I'm with synthguy on all points...
Well said Synthguy.
-Mc
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Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| synthguy wrote: | | ... considering Japan has recently undergone a disaster on the scale of a small war... |
Not so small. And if this is even part of the reason for the delay, then it is reasonable and fair for us to be patient, and to help as we are able.
However, the OP is entirely correct as well. The product descriptions all state that the KRONOS "has" - present tense - an editor. Korg has not delivered that editor, so the product as sold is not as represented. Period, full stop.
While I, personally, have no objection to the current state of affairs, and I have more sympathy for people in Japan right now than some folks here seem to imagine, the OP is fully within his rights to return the product for a full refund, which it seems he has not yet done. He also has a right to make others aware of the deficiency. Which he has done.
And we are free to point out his right to return the product, and beyond that, to grant him all the sympathy that we feel he deserves, according to how each of us sees the matter.
Mine is limited. I've been waiting for networking capabilities in the PLAY engine since 2005. Though they were clearly identified as a future feature, six years and a major version and a derived, "pro" version later does seem a wee bit late. Thankfully, it seems that the good people at Vienna were feeling gracious enough to solve it, even in the face of EastWest's arrogance, factual error concerning DLLs and the VST specification, unreasonability, and intransigence in the matter. Though it must be said, in fairness, that EW is usually very helpful. I think Doug was unusually cranky that day, for reasons unknown.
But just as a thought to Korg, here, any chance of getting the sysex message formats, or whatever interface the editor uses, published? Whatever that is, it will get decoded eventually - in fact, very quickly. Publishing, even in Kanji, and even in some very raw form, would let third parties build lots of interesting stuff that might advance the platform. On balance, it seems low risk, low cost (since the spec probably exists) and a great way to signal a newwillingness to work with people who advance your interests. The worst that happens is nothing; what is there to lose?
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Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| synthguy wrote: | I'll say as someone who won't be able to enjoy a Kronos for a while,
and considering Japan has recently undergone a disaster on the scale of a small war, and in their manufacturing area - heck, they had to work around power rationing and threats from a failing reactor farm!
I'd personally be darned glad for whatever I got from KORG right now.
As for his thread, I've said my peace on the matter, so peace out. |
Everyone keeps speculating what is going on in the country I live in. The disaster did not effect the entire country anymore than Hurricane Katrina effected the rest of the US. Korg is less approx 40 minutes where I live. The disaster hit approx 4-5 hours north of us. If Korg was able to manufacturer and ship out keyboards, I don'r believe the disaster had any effect on the programmers coding the software editor.
@McHale
Yes. I will speak for the majority of people that can actually read. If a website says that Kronos has a software editor and can be used as a plug-in..,anyone that can read would take Korg at their word. One of the first questions people asked me in the forum was about the software editor. I spent a lot of time looking in the included DVD and trying to configure my Mac for software that wasn't included.
Like I said before..we have a lot of people passionate about Korg and willing to defend them at any cost. I am sorry, I just tell things as I see if. Roland got the same black eye with the "incomplete" OS of my Fantom G. 
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Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| jahrome wrote: | | Everyone keeps speculating what is going on in the country I live in. The disaster did not effect the entire country anymore than Hurricane Katrina effected the rest of the US. Korg is less approx 40 minutes where I live. The disaster hit approx 4-5 hours north of us. If Korg was able to manufacturer and ship out keyboards, I don'r believe the disaster had any effect on the programmers coding the software editor. |
You are probably right, but with respect, you are also speculating. First, you do not seem to know where the programmers are. Second, and assuming the worst, you do not know what burdens may exist on them - perhaps for reasons that have nothing to do with their job. I prefer to extend the benefit of trust.
This is sincere, but it is not innocent. If my trust is deserved, then it will be appreciated and respected in Japan. If it is not deserved, there is no force in the universe that will more strongly inspire Japanese programmers to commit themselves to erasing their current state of disgrace than to disregard it as something that can only be excused by a disruption of this scale - especially when that allowance comes from Gaijin.
Of course, if this job was the duty of American programmers, we are all screwed together. If that is true, then the current situation is (indrawn hiss) "very difficult" for all parties involved.
Anticipating certain replies, I am not engaged here in "Japan bashing". American teams, faced with similar circumstances, would simply give up. This does not, in my view, reflect favorably on Americans. The two groups are distinct, each having its respective strengths and vulnerabilities.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Yes, but I believe I am in a better position to speculate since I do live here and Korg is within a short distance from me.....far, far away from the site of the disaster. Korg programmers working at Korg is most logical. Korg programmers working in a small town near Sendai close to farm land is the last place I would expect programmers. Its all speculation. But I would bet on my logic.
My computers at home and at work were fully operational. Best bet is that a computers and a multinational business has better resources than I. I am just saying....
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Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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Zeroesque
Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 451
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| jahrome wrote: | | Roland got the same black eye with the "incomplete" OS of my Fantom G. |
I agree that the website (which is pretty easily changed, unlike paper docs) should probably mention that the editor isn't yet available. However, I don't see how an incomplete OS (core functionality) and a PC editor (essentially a software accessory) are on the same levels.
Is anyone really going to return a brand new Kronos because it doesn't yet have external editing software?
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Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10 |
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Mystic38
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2010
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: promises promises |
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i hope this was tongue in cheek cos if you were trying to be serious then you simply have no idea what you are talking about.. 
now.. if we were talking about the stock AP, velocity profiles, arpeggiator, phrase editing or saving songs/samples to other projects on the Fantom G i would cheerfully rant for days with you.. but the user interface on the FG is simply the best out there...
credit where credit is due..
| robbinhood wrote: | | Of course you need a software editor for such a crappy interface (Fantom G) |
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Korg PA4X, Nord Stage 3, Virus Ti Polar, Novation Nova II, Yamaha S70XS, MPC-X, TC Helicon Voicelive Rack, KRK VXT8 monitors, 2012 LP Standard, 1999 Am. hardtail Strat, Fender DRRI, Orange AD30HTC, Marshall Vintage Modern, 2 cans and a piece of string... |
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jahrome
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeroesque wrote: | | jahrome wrote: | | Roland got the same black eye with the "incomplete" OS of my Fantom G. |
I agree that the website (which is pretty easily changed, unlike paper docs) should probably mention that the editor isn't yet available. However, I don't see how an incomplete OS (core functionality) and a PC editor (essentially a software accessory) are on the same levels.
Is anyone really going to return a brand new Kronos because it doesn't yet have external editing software? |
Asking if anyone is going to return their Kronos because an advertised program editor isn't available is clearly not the point.
You might have missed my jest. I was just poking fun at Roland for what I believe is an unfinished OS not that my statement is a fact.
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Tool box: Kronos 61, Fantom FA06, ASR-10, MPCX, MPC Live, and MPC 4000. |
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