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Good news: got my K-88... bad news: aggregate audio unstable
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BetaMark



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:57 pm    Post subject: Good news: got my K-88... bad news: aggregate audio unstable Reply with quote

Jus got it yesterday. But first some backstory: This will be somewhat comparing apples to oranges in that I traded up from an M50, which I was using primarily as a controller. For about the last 10 years I've been working in the software domain in order to avoid MIDI Hell, and in fact just a few years ago had a most disastrous experience trying to integrate a Yamaha Motif SX-8 with my DAW (Anyone remember mLAN? Anyone trying to forget mLAN? Crying or Very sad ). It was because of the overwhelmingly positive experience I've had with the M50 and its plugin editor that I took a leap of faith and bought a Kronos sight-unseen. But enough of this. Onward to...

My Kronos 88 Critique

First, build quality...

YES, it has plastic end-pieces, and this might be an issue for gigging. But my board is for studio use only, and the shape of the end-pieces make it a rather handsome beast, IMO.

YES, the sliders and scroll wheel could have perhaps a better feel, but I wouldn't call them strictly junky, either.

YES, the vector joystick is rather, well how should I say this... 'dainty'? But hey! Just treat it gentle, like you would a certain dainty lady-part, and she'll sing for you (OOPS, hope that wan't too risqué! Embarassed ).

YES, there's a fan. In my case, it's just loud enough to be audible, but quiet enough that it's a non-issue. Only my iMac runs more quietly.

NO, I haven't tried pulling any of the knobs/joysticks/sliders off the board. Why on Earth would I want to do that? Shocked

YES, it has the good old RH3 action. Although I play mostly pop, I was classically trained, so I do better with keys that hit back. I loved the RH3 on the M50, and I'm lovin' it now. After banging away on it all last night, I haven't run into any odd noises or funny keys. The gaps between keys are not absolutely consistent from one to another, but IMO this is also what you'd see on a set of genuine ivories... just adds a touch of realism.

YES, the display is gorgeous, and it looks to me like it has a smudge-resistent surface, which helps. The fonts are a little on the small side, but I still find them readable. What I find a little more tricky is the touch navigation. I think it's a combination of that there's an overall higher density of data on the screen, so that targets for your finger are smaller, plus there's very little tilt to the screen, making for some parallax effect (and yes I calibrated the touch screen). Aiming just a little high when navigating seems to help.

Overall, I'd give build quality a 3.5 out of 5 stars.

Okay, now on to the sounds.

I'll try to keep this short and sweet. I played... I laughed... I cried with tears of joy. And to sum it all up...

I HAVE DIED AND GONE TO KEYBOARD HEAVEN!!!

Was that sweet enough?

Now for the bad news

The aggregate device I created that was a combination of my Kronos and Apogee Duet has proven to be unstable. It has exhibited pretty much all the nasty hobgoblins I've heard about wherein after a few minutes of playing, audio quality will degrade, starting with clicks/pops, stuttering and finally changing to a terrible ring modulation-sounding distortion, and/or a huge latency in playing from the keyboard. I've tried playing with the setup of the source clock in the Mac OS X Audio/MIDI utilities, as well as assigning the resampling of the 2 devices in various combinations, but to no avail.

Since I do my music projects in typical fashion, recording instrumental tracks first and then vocals, It looks like I'll have to start with the Kronos chosen as my input audio device in Logic preferences, then switch to the Duet input device when I'm ready to record vocals. Not the end of the world, but I hate having to 'lock in' my Kronos instrumental mix before I can lay down vocal tracks. Anyone know of a way around this? What do other folks do that have similar studio setups?
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MartinHines
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the PC side, there is no support for any type of Aggregate Audio device, so with ASIO you can only have one device active at a time.

We either have to switch audio devices in our DAW (like you described) or use the Kronos audio outputs (analog or S/PDIF).
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DocAtlas



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ASIO4ALL will let you use several interfaces as if they were one device. Check it out. I've been using it for years.
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BetaMark



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MartinHines wrote:
We either have to switch audio devices in our DAW (like you described) or use the Kronos audio outputs (analog or S/PDIF).


How would S/PDIF help? Isn't that still digital?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DocAtlas wrote:
ASIO4ALL will let you use several interfaces as if they were one device. Check it out. I've been using it for years.


That's fine if you're running Windows.
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BetaMark wrote:
DocAtlas wrote:
ASIO4ALL will let you use several interfaces as if they were one device. Check it out. I've been using it for years.


That's fine if you're running Windows.


Except that ASIO4ALL doesn't really offer you all of the advantages of ASIO.
Generally speaking, it should be reserved only for when you are using an interface that doesn't have its own ASIO drivers. However, it does make a handy workaround, and is quite clever.
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Lou
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: Good news: got my K-88... bad news: aggregate audio unst Reply with quote

BetaMark wrote:
I've tried playing with the setup of the source clock in the Mac OS X Audio/MIDI utilities, as well as assigning the resampling of the 2 devices in various combinations, but to no avail.


I went through the same sound experience you describe. As for resampling I had the best output without resampling either of the 2.. deselect both. (I'm using an Ensemble/Kronos Aggregate))
Also, the order of which gets turned on first, sometimes confuses the aggregate. I usually turn them on together, but Kronos always starts last because of the longer load.
Make sure that the Duet is the sound input and output in System Preferences. Don't give up, it works but you have to do a lot of switching, until you hit on the right combination.. See if that helps..
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: Good news: got my K-88... bad news: aggregate audio unst Reply with quote

Lou wrote:
I went through the same sound experience you describe. As for resampling I had the best output without resampling either of the 2.. deselect both.


Which device did you select as the clock source?

Quote:
Also, the order of which gets turned on first, sometimes confuses the aggregate. I usually turn them on together, but Kronos always starts last because of the longer load.


I never shut the equipment down. Hopefully that would make this one less thing to be concerned about.

Quote:
Make sure that the Duet is the sound input and output in System Preferences.


Is it a must to set the System Preferences this way? I prefer to use the computer's normal input/output settings so that I can audition my mixes on the computer speakers as well as my near-field monitors. But I'll follow your advice if you think this step is important.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Good news: got my K-88... bad news: aggregate audio unst Reply with quote

[quote="BetaMark"][quote="Lou"]

Quote:
Which device did you select as the clock source?

My Ensemble is the clock, I would set the Duet as your clock.

Quote:
I never shut the equipment down. Hopefully that would make this one less thing to be concerned about.

That may be fine, I guess. Are you saying you never shut down your audio interface?

Quote:
Is it a must to set the System Preferences this way? I prefer to use the computer's normal input/output settings so that I can audition my mixes on the computer speakers as well as my near-field monitors.

I can't say it's a must, but I have experienced odd behavior with the aggregate if things aren't the way it wants them to be. It took me a few days and longer before I had it working smoothly.

Here is what works smoothly with my setup, it may be different for you, but try it:

The aggregate is setup in Audio Midi, but the sound input and output are selected on the Ensemble. I know that sounds odd, but it works.
Also, as I mentioned, the Ensemble is selected in the Sys. Prefs. You have to see what works for you. This is what works for me. (Stay with it, you will get it)
I haven't been able to get the Kronos to play thru my Computer speakers as you mention..
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Broadwave
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought... The Kronos only sends data at 48K, if you're setting up an aggregate device shouldn't both interfaces run at the same frequency... I'm not sure if the Duet can be set to 48k?

I can't even create an aggregate device with the Alesis Multimix USB2 and the Kronos. Maybe because the Alesis is already sending out 18 streams and an extra two is too much for USB to handle?

Meanwhile I'm having to chop and change between them, which is a real pain when it comes to monitoring, as I can only hear the output of one interface or the other Sad
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Lou
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kronik wrote:
Just a thought... The Kronos only sends data at 48K, if you're setting up an aggregate device shouldn't both interfaces run at the same frequency... I'm not sure if the Duet can be set to 48k?

I can't even create an aggregate device with the Alesis Multimix USB2 and the Kronos. Maybe because the Alesis is already sending out 18 streams and an extra two is too much for USB to handle?

Meanwhile I'm having to chop and change between them, which is a real pain when it comes to monitoring, as I can only hear the output of one interface or the other Sad



Very strange, but I just read this on Apogee's site:

Can Duet be used as an Aggregate Device?
Q: Can Duet be used as an Aggregate Device?
A: No, it is not supported to use Duet as an Aggregate Device.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Good news: got my K-88... bad news: aggregate audio unst Reply with quote

Lou wrote:
Are you saying you never shut down your audio interface?


That is correct. The Duet is powered by the FireWire bus, which is connected to my iMac. I leave the computer running at all times, therefore the Duet also remains powered up.

Quote:
The aggregate is setup in Audio Midi, but the sound input and output are selected on the Ensemble.


I'm not sure what that means. Where did you make this input/output selection? In the Maestro software? In the audio/MIDI utility? In the Logic audio preferences? Confused
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I selected "Use this Device for Sound Input and Output" in the Audio Midi Setup. I tried selecting the aggregate for this, but it gave me trouble. When I leave it set to the Ensemble, it just works..
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou wrote:
Very strange, but I just read this on Apogee's site:

Can Duet be used as an Aggregate Device?
Q: Can Duet be used as an Aggregate Device?
A: No, it is not supported to use Duet as an Aggregate Device.


Many thanks to all. At least now I have a definitive answer, straight from the source! Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kronik wrote:
Just a thought... The Kronos only sends data at 48K, if you're setting up an aggregate device shouldn't both interfaces run at the same frequency... I'm not sure if the Duet can be set to 48k?


That's correct. The Duet does support 48k, and I had to set this under the Logic project settings before the aggregate device would work at all.

Quote:
Meanwhile I'm having to chop and change between them, which is a real pain when it comes to monitoring, as I can only hear the output of one interface or the other Sad


As per Apogee's knowledge base, it looks like I'll have to do the same. Not a huge deal for me, as I only listen to the Duet's input when recording vocals. But it does mean that before I can record a vocal track, I'll have to record my Kronos instrument backing onto an audio track, thereby 'locking in' the instrumental mix so I can then switch to the Duet as input device in the Logic audio preferences. And of course, if at that point the Kronos mix turns out not to be to my liking, I'll have to switch input devices back to the Kronos... Oy! Sad
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