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Desperately needed "Set List" feature needed
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phattbuzz
Platinum Member

Joined: 15 Jun 2011
Posts: 790
Location: NH USA

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject:

PinkFloydDudi wrote:

Take any song that you find difficult. Now try playing that same song, on the fly, in a key a half step down. Let me know how that works out for you.

It really depends on what training you've had. I learned a lot of music theory when I started playing keyboards, so I have less of a difficult time transposing than someone who was dependent on sheet music. I've had a couple of instances on live gigs where I've started in the wrong key with no problem whatsoever! Wink

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Scott
Platinum Member

Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject:

phattbuzz wrote:

PinkFloydDudi wrote:

Take any song that you find difficult. Now try playing that same song, on the fly, in a key a half step down. Let me know how that works out for you.

Like PFD said, "take a song you find difficult." I transpose simple pop songs on the fly all the time, and it's not so much a matter of having learned theory as just having an ear for the changes. But not every song can be so simple to transpose on the fly, and when you're playing live, you don't want to hit even one bum chord or mess one key line...

Last edited by Scott on Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFloydDudi
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject:

phattbuzz wrote:

PinkFloydDudi wrote:

Take any song that you find difficult. Now try playing that same song, on the fly, in a key a half step down. Let me know how that works out for you.

Some will certainly have a "less difficult" time than others - sure! However to take an extremely difficult piece that you have played in 1 key for 5 years, and then suddenly have to play it in a different one?

I guess I could pose this question to get my point across. Which do you think you would play better:
1) A song in the key you have always played it after knowing it for years and practicing it
2) That same song, in a brand new key that you have never played before.

Now granted, some of you may say "the same"...but I would imagine a good chunk of the general public buying a kronos would say they would play "choice 1" better than choice 2.

Again, simply justifying why a transpose function exists to some who don't understand the need for it.

StephenKay
KARMA Developer
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Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:30 pm Post subject:

PinkFloydDudi wrote:

phattbuzz wrote:

PinkFloydDudi wrote:

Take any song that you find difficult. Now try playing that same song, on the fly, in a key a half step down. Let me know how that works out for you.

It also depends on the difficulty of the song, and whether there are note-for-note required lines in it. A lot of standard gig-playing is comping in a certain style, which is easy to transpose to different keys just by ear and basic music theory knowledge.

But I challenge anyone to take ELP's KarnEvil9 First Impression, assuming you can play it in the first place, and then play it a half step higher or lower, on demand. I challenge anyone to take Yes's Close to the Edge or Siberian Khatru and play it a half step higher or lower, on demand. Good luck with that. Wink

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franzlp
Full Member

Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 193

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject:

Those are tunes where you beat down the singer and tell him , " sing it in that key or else " For a Duran Duranish pop tune manual transposition is not out of reason.

Scott
Platinum Member

Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject:

StephenKay wrote:

But I challenge anyone to take ELP's KarnEvil9 First Impression, assuming you can play it in the first place, and then play it a half step higher or lower, on demand.

Exactly. I've played KE9 with different bands who needed it to be in different keys. Not only wouldn't I attempt to transpose that on the fly, I wouldn't even want to put the time in to learn it in another key. Transpose button, absolutely!

PinkFloydDudi
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject:

franzlp wrote:

Those are tunes where you beat down the singer and tell him , " sing it in that key or else Smile

"

For a Duran Duranish pop tune manual transposition is not out of reason.

lol. So true. Hell they want to transpose those, have them get a damn auto-tune device and transpose their vocals!

Seems people get the point though. Yes of course it has to deal with the difficulty of the song, which is directly related to the skill of the player...but I doubt there are many of us out there who can take any song and play it in any key requested!

*Waits for guy to come in and say "i can play both those songs no problem in any key"*

CoreyMast
Full Member

Joined: 21 Jun 2011
Posts: 100
Location: California

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject:

Lol this would be fun to transpose. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUB83_F-SmE&feature=related haha ...no thanks. _________________ Corey Mast Alesis Andromeda A6, Kronos 88 www.coreymast.com

franzlp
Full Member

Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 193

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject:

Transpose??? I think you would have to consider you first have to learn how to play it proficiently. Set aside a couple of years.

vEddY
Platinum Member

Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 1263
Location: Zagreb

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:00 pm Post subject:

Scott wrote:

In a sense, anything anyone has ever done is "doable" but that doesn't mean that everyone wants (or even has the ability) to do it. If there's a flute part in a song, I suppose I could learn it on flute... with enough time, it would be doable. But it is much more sensible for me to hit a button on my keyboard and have it sound like a flute.

Moreover, the biggest issue is, as you said, it takes time. This is the real problem for live performers. You're at a gig, and a friend of the band comes up and asks to sing a song. You know it, but s/he does it in a different key. Depending on the complexity of the song and the abilities of the player, there is a reasonable likelihood that the keyboardist will not be able to transpose it in the fly. This is where transpose buttons come in awfully handy. Or maybe your singer is having a rough night, and there's a tough song coming up in the set list (or one has been requested by the audience), and s/he asks you to drop it a whole step. Or you're last-minute subbing for someone on a gig, and you find that they do some songs you know in different keys. Etc.

I agree with you on all acounts. However, I do have one thing to add. I have a (mis)fortune of having the "perfect pitch" thingy. It would be nearly impossible for me to describe how complicated it is for me to do songs from different keys then original key. Of course there are situations when a singer just can't do a song from the original key. I can honestly tell you that I'm in hell then and usually refuse to play that song or those songs. It's not the notes and transposing "in my head" or playing in transposed key (two different approaches) that kills me, it's the overall feeling of a song that I can feel in my head. The feeling of the song is lost, vibe is gone, harmonies are gone and it's a nightmare for me.

That being said - it's much easier for me to do that if the song is piano only, or piano-vocal only. The more instruments and harmonies there is in a song, the bigger the nightmare for me gets. Smile

For example - and from a technical standpoint - it's much easier to do that on a guitar, for me. Especially soloing. Playing background guitars, chords and other stuff... that would be more of a challenge, if complex arrangements were at stake.

In terms of classical music... Here's an example or two. I could _absolutely never_ play something like Chopin's G minor or F major balads (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR7eUSFsn28 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX3EbkjRA_Q) in a different key. F major would be a bit of a challenge to play transposed from a technical standpoint, as well. But the main reason would be that my head would explode. I played those and heard those thowsands of times. I would puke after 10 bars.
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Scott
Platinum Member

Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1015

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:38 pm Post subject:

vEddY wrote:

I have a similar kind of problem, though the opposite way!

I have some amount of perfect pitch. Its not flawless, but my ears certainly know something is wrong when I hit a C major chord on the piano and it comes out sounding like a Bb, and it is bothersome.

So unlike you, it doesn't bother me to hear a song in a different key... I recognize it sounds different, and sometimes I feel it doesn't work as well, but it never really bothers me... after all, even recorded covers of songs are often done in different keys from the original. But I do get bothered by the disconnect between the note I'm striking and the transposed note I'm hearing.

I very, very rarely use the transpose feature, but there are a few times it's come in handy.

I'll also point out another time a button is preferable to playing a song in a different key... sometimes there are signature parts that depend on a certain key layout. For example, think about a blues run where you hit a black key, say, Bb, and drop the same finger to the white key, B. If you transpose it a half step down, you now need to slide the note from A to A#. It will not feel or play the same having to hit the notes with two fingers, plus you'll have fewer fingers "left over." You might come up with a fingering that will let you get the notes you want, but you won't recapture the feel of playing it in the original key. This will also affect any improv you might do in a lead section... improv in a different key, because of the physical layout of the notes, will tend to bring you to different places which is going to alter the character of the lead, and in some cases, perhaps in an undesirable way. I think this would especially come up in organ playing, where there are numerous common maneuvers that are not simply using a finger to press a key, and the key layout definitely affects what you reasonably can and cannot do.

And one last one no one has mentioned... sometimes you could need a transpose button just to keep a part within the keyboard's range. Say you're playing a song in C on a 61-note board, and someone asks you to raise it to D, and you need to go to that high C when you play it in C ... now there's no high D to go to, so what do you do? This also effects people with larger boards who set up splits. Even if you have the ability to transpose on the fly, you have to worry about a part going out of its defined zone range on the board.

jg::
Platinum Member

Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 685
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:35 am Post subject:

Quote:

I have some amount of perfect pitch. Its not flawless, but my ears certainly know something is wrong when I hit a C major chord on the piano and it comes out sounding like a Bb .... I do get bothered by the disconnect between the note I'm striking and the transposed note I'm hearing.

I'm exactly the same as you, Scott. It never sounds "right" to play transposed. I'll learn a song in another key if necessary. But it won't be Chopin or Karn Evil 9, though!

Getting back to the original subject, most of the radical transpositions mentioned in the last few posts can easily be done in Global mode - you don't need a dedicated button. But I do understand that some people may want one for their own specific situations.

jg::

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