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Zeroesque

Has anyone moved any patches over manually? As in, parameter-for-parameter type of copying a Triton or Trinity program into the Kronos (or Oasys) HD-1? I know certain things would have to be re-mapped, so to speak, such as multisamples, effects and such, but has anyone had any luck at trying such a thing and gotten decent results?

I just tried with the Trinity's "Ultra Res. Sweep" patch (something like the original Playstation startup bass sound). It seemed fairly straightforward (especially envelopes), but I definitely got confused w/ a few of the modulation sources and settings. Without editing, the result was a good start, but not nearly close w/ the filter cutoffs (which are modded by a few sources). I think I put a wrong number somewhere. Embarassed

Does anyone have any tips? Is this a futile exercise? Would Triton patches be more 1:1?

Any help is appreciated, even telling me this is absurd.

BTW, I've taken a look at the .pcg specs on the Karma-Lab site and I could definitely spend some time on a script of sorts...but I'd have to know which things map where first, as in, what I'm trying above.
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Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10

qfingers · Joined: 05 Aug 2004 Posts: 24

As soon as my ordered kronos arrives, my intention is to write a converter from triton patches to kronos hd-1 patches. I am the guy responsible for writing g2ools which was a patch converter for the nord modular g2 that converted dx7 and the original nord modular (g1) patches. This was a far more complicated conversion process then a triton/trinity to kronos convertion. I think the hard part is conversion tables for the envelope times, modulation amounts and LFO frequencies. Those mappings may be 1 to 1 but may require tweaking. I tried something similar when I wrote MOSSThief, which was an attempt to convert nord lead patches to the MOSS, but no one on the forum had a nord lead that could (or would) give me proper mappings. My hope is that I can do better for the Triton to Kronos as I will have both synths for comparison. When I get further along, I'll post an update.

Later,
q

Kontrol49 · Platinum Member Joined: 04 Mar 2006 Posts: 1280

qfingers · Joined: 05 Aug 2004 Posts: 24

michelkeijzers · Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:35 am Post subject:

There is no MIDI implementation documentation yet and it is not guaranteed it will come. In any case not in the following few months.

I have some data analyzed (together with some forum members but far from complete). I also have C# code for reading a complete Kronos PCG file which can be easily adapted for other PCG files.

PCG files from Oasys to Kronos are compatible, but I do not think the Oasys can read Kronos PCG files since it contains set lists. However, it might be possible those are skipped, so the compatibility would be 2 ways.

For patch/parameter conversion, it might be possible but is very time consuming. Never tried it myself tough. Between Korgs it should be easier, for other brand it might be that every parameter value has not the same linear/logarithmic/exponential value curve. Between Korgs this probably is equal.
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/

qfingers · Joined: 05 Aug 2004 Posts: 24

michelkeijzers · Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:35 pm Post subject:

qfingers · Joined: 05 Aug 2004 Posts: 24

michelkeijzers · Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:05 pm Post subject:

Gargamel314 · Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject:

Zeroesque · Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject: Update

As an update to my original post (if anyone cares), I've gone back to edit the Trinity's "Ultra Res. Sweep" patch that I had copied, essentially verbatim, to the Kronos HD-1. Well, I had made a few errors, probably due to lack of sleep (duh), that were easily identified.

After a little effort, I've nailed the patch. I'd give it a 9/10. I doubt anyone without a decent feel for this stuff would even notice a difference. I'd be confident using this live or in the studio (I have a tune that uses a slightly mellowed version of this patch).

Some findings (from memory):

Samples:
This patch relies upon simple waveform-type samples, one of which had a direct replacement and the other had some close relatives. I couldn't find a replacement in the Kronos for what sounds like a two-osc detuned saw sample in the Trinity. That seems to have been upgraded to various beefier supersaw-type waveforms...regular "Saw" worked better, and the patch goes through a chorus effect anyway. The "Saw-mg" sample, however, is in both machines.

Other Osc settings:
Can basically map 1:1 (though not backwards...we're talking Trinity to Kronos, here)

EGs:
Can be entered verbatim and be similar, but there is some difference in what the numbers mean (especially time) in the disparate engines. Maybe it's linear vs. logarithmic, but I don't think the curve really matters...I would really have to test each one, 0-99. I think I could map them reliably in the middle, though. Extremely long timings might not have an exact match.

Filter:
I used a 12db lowpass in HD-1 to approximate the Trinity's lowpass filter. The 24db did not sound right. I think this is the correct setting (anyone know for sure?), and the other filter types look like they have direct matches (including parallel/serial configs). The numbers aren't quite 1:1, but I don't doubt I could map them. They were close off the bat.

Amp:
Very similar situation to the filter, probably easier.

AMS:
A little scary, but the Kronos seems to have all of the Trinity's routings covered. I'm not quite sure how well the numbers map, but I've left it mostly 1:1 after the copy. They probably have to be tested like the others.

Effects:
Really scary to do programmatically, but Kronos, again, seems to have the Trinity covered. This was actually quite straightforward for this patch, as I picked similarly named effects and entered numbers in verbatim and it sounded perfect (delays and chorus, anyway). The reverbs have some different params, but sound close enough.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something huge, but it was pretty straight-forward and is getting me familiar with the HD-1 (which is pretty similar to other Korgs, of course). In terms of sounds, I have no idea how well many of the other multisamples might map, but I bet synth sounds (which I imagine most people would want...who cares about older acoustic sounds) would all have something close. Personally, I could care less about acoustic sounds, drums and special effect-type waveforms, though you could argue that the simple waveform sounds that I'm converting about are the easiest to program from scratch anyway, and should maybe be redone in a different engine.

I still want to try a few more sounds before trying to get in on any effort to program a converter, just to get a better feel of the new (to me) engine. I've read through some of the other threads relating to that and there's no warm and fuzzy going on, but I wouldn't mind trying anyway.

Next up: Monster Lead!

BTW, is anyone interested in having Trinity patches on their Kronos besides me?
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Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10

qfingers · Joined: 05 Aug 2004 Posts: 24

JPROBERTLA · Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject:

This would be greatly appreciated. I have been using a Triton Studio for 10 years and have over 200 sequences with hundreds os custom programs. I know I can't do much about the sequence data conversion time, but not having to search for and/or reassemble lots of programs would reduce the overall conversion time considerably.

JP
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JP
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Kronos2-88, Behringer XR18, Turbosound IP2000 (x2), dbx DriveRack 260, KRK Rokit 8s, Mackie CFX16, Mackie SRM450(x2), Mackie SRS1500 (x2), BBE processors (x4), Roland VSR 880 (x2), Alto TS210, Alto TX10 (x3) and SoundForge

JPROBERTLA · Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject:

This would be greatly appreciated. I have been using a Triton Studio for 10 years and have over 200 sequences with hundreds os custom programs. I know I can't do much about the sequence data conversion time, but not having to search for and/or reassemble lots of programs would reduce the overall conversion time considerably.

JP
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JP
_________________________________________
Kronos2-88, Behringer XR18, Turbosound IP2000 (x2), dbx DriveRack 260, KRK Rokit 8s, Mackie CFX16, Mackie SRM450(x2), Mackie SRS1500 (x2), BBE processors (x4), Roland VSR 880 (x2), Alto TS210, Alto TX10 (x3) and SoundForge

Yatrix · Senior Member Joined: 11 Nov 2010 Posts: 281

Guys,
BillW was so kind to provide me about month ago with preload.pcg for Kronos and midi specs from the disk (thanks to Korg for complete info this time) and I've already implemented viewer function for Kronos pcg files in my librarian. See my site in signature. The preload.pcg for Kronos is included inside setup.

And BTW probably audition of programs and combination should work for Kronos as well. It is available even in demo mode. Please, try.

As for converting programs, IMO that will be easier to repeate settings for dozen of T sounds you really miss just manually. Theoretically conversion should be possible, but practically.... can suppose that will be really crazy job because :
a) there are 3450 bytes of of parameters for HD-1 ,where at least half you will need to consider, and some of params require even not per byte but per bit coding, and
b) are you sure the wave forms that were in T remained the same in K ?

Of cause that is very interesting but, you go deep in programming instead of music. I personally had enough of coding and already went back to rock-n-roll and wish you the same Very Happy

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Developer of Aldan III for Korg M50, KROME.
Please find the app at :
http://korgpatches.com/patches/m50/aldan_iii_trial
Documentation included in setup.