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First Impressions: Minor (and fixable) KRONOS faults
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D

Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject:

RonF wrote:

But what I do not understand is the omission of a contrast setting, so the user can adjust the optimal viewing angle. This was on the M3, which even HAD an adjustable Screen Angle (well...the whole darn thing, but you know what I mean). But, with the K, the Viewing angle is factory set, and is really only optimal when you are seated directly over the K.....such as on a first tier traditional keyboard stand, or table. Any other position choice is not optimal for the factory set angle, and causes you to have to lean over the K to see it correctly. I have no problem with the design choice of a fixed flat screen angle...but the omission of the contrast setting, is poor, IMO.

It's interesting to compare the viewing angle of the LCDs on the M3 and the KRONOS, respectively. The M3's LCD changes dramatically in appearance as the viewing angle varies, with the entire color space inverting at about 45 degrees. This necessitates contrast control.

In contrast (pun intended), the KRONOS LCD maintains proper white/black contrast all the way to 85 degrees or more (to the point where the angle is so great that everything is squashed beyond recognition) - and to get there, my eye-level has to be under the surface of the keybed.

I have the KRONOS on the second tier of my stand, so in a seated position the angle is perhaps 75 degrees. Text is all still clearly readable and colors, though slightly shifted, still seem fine. If you are noticing visibility issues, make sure that the brightness is turned all the way up.

Hope this helps!

- Dan
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com

McHale
Platinum Member

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject:

If you look at the pic I posted in the "Show me your Kronos" thread. Take a look at all the displays of my keyboards. M50 unreadable, Triton Unreadable, M3 barely readable, Kronos - pretty decent: you can tell it's the CX-3 engine up AND what the drawbars are set at. I was over 5 feet away standing under a light when I took it. I'm pretty happy with the Kronos screen... _________________ Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha).

shap
Full Member

Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject:

danatkorg wrote:

There is only a Brightness control... Sorry for the inconvenience.

Dan: Is there some other way to adjust LCD contrast?
_________________
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shap
Full Member

Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:58 pm Post subject:

danatkorg wrote:

I have the KRONOS on the second tier of my stand, so in a seated position the angle is perhaps 75 degrees.

Is your upper tier perchance angled down a bit? In my case the KRONOS is on a single-tier stand at standard piano height. The LCD brightness is at 63 (which seems to be max). My viewing angle when normally seated is almost exactly 45 degrees (I can get a precise measurement if that is helpful).

At 45 degrees, the display is noticeably dimmer. When I look from above, I can mostly read everything. When I look from my seated position, the reduction in brightness is enough to eliminate my ability to raise the display.

All: the problem here isn't the fixed display position; it's the particular angle. It's a tough one to fix within the form factor constraints.

I'd have to go back and look at the tear-down photos to be sure, but I suspect that the MOTIF's "sunken bezel" trick won't work. The MOTIF XF display is mounted significantly further away from the keybed. My guess would be that the internal clearance just isn't there on the KRONOS to play that trick. Given this constraint, the only way I can see to angle the display more favorably for a seated performer requires (a) a hinge, like on the OASYS, or (b) a taller enclosure so as to make the upper edge of the display be higher, or (c) some form of "bump out" on the enclosure, similar to what was done on the Fantom enclosures. Options (b,c) give you a net increase in enclosure height, which makes transporting the unit harder. The current height is favorable to cars whose rear seats can be lowered.

The catch, of course, is that the angle of the display would then (of necessity) be less favorable for standing players. It's not clear to me whether a good balance for both is possible.

Maybe I should just raise my seat a bit and grow longer arms. Laughing

_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys

danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D

Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:13 pm Post subject:

shap wrote:

danatkorg wrote:

I have the KRONOS on the second tier of my stand, so in a seated position the angle is perhaps 75 degrees.

Is your upper tier perchance angled down a bit?

Slightly, yes, which is why the viewing angle isn't greater than 75 degrees. Smile

shap wrote:

In my case the KRONOS is on a single-tier stand at standard piano height. The LCD brightness is at 63 (which seems to be max). My viewing angle when normally seated is almost exactly 45 degrees (I can get a precise measurement if that is helpful).

At 45 degrees, the display is noticeably dimmer. When I look from above, I can mostly read everything. When I look from my seated position, the reduction in brightness is enough to eliminate my ability to raise the display.

Did you mean "...ability to read the display?"

If so, I don't know what to say. On my unit at least, the brightness is lower at 45 degrees, but everything is still completely clear. My normal working position is at an angle or around 35 to 45 degrees; it's on the second tier, and I'm normally standing. I have a pre-production unit, so it's always possible that something is different.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com

Synthvalley
Junior Member

Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 59
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject:

danatkorg wrote:

This will be fixed in the next version of the manual; thank you for pointing this out. Sorry for the inconvenience.

What is the expectation for the next version of the manual? Weeks or months? (I'm trying to decide when I might pull the trigger on making a hard copy version.)

Thanks - SV

danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D

Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:32 pm Post subject:

Synthvalley wrote:

danatkorg wrote:

This will be fixed in the next version of the manual; thank you for pointing this out. Sorry for the inconvenience.

What is the expectation for the next version of the manual? Weeks or months? (I'm trying to decide when I might pull the trigger on making a hard copy version.)

Thanks - SV

I'm sorry, but I can't generally answer that type of question.

I'll add that, in my opinion, the manuals are most useful as PDFs. The PDFs offer live links for cross-references and TOCs, so there's no need to rifle through pages to find a reference. Even more importantly, for me, the PDFs support searching; I use that all the time. Printing and binding the full 1500 pages or so may be costly; it might be reasonable to compare this with the cost of a low-end Kindle.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com

RonF
Platinum Member

Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject:

danatkorg wrote:

RonF wrote:

Thanks Dan for your comments. I agree, there is a stark difference between the M3 and Kronos screens, and contrast ratios. The Kronos screen is in a significantly higher league, no doubt. It is crisp, bright, and vibrant.....at the proper viewing angle. Here in lays the problem. While there is no doubt that, without a contrast adjustment, the Kronos blows away the M3 screen in every respect. But WITH a contrast adjustment....the M3 screen is actually brighter and easier to read at greater than a 45 degree angle....only because of the contrast adjustment. Still...the M3 screen, as you point out, remains lower resolution, and in fact inverted in its color spectrum, not to mention smaller.....but still it is easier to read and brighter at that angle simply because of the contrast adjustment.

I have actually mounted my Kronos at about a 45 degree angle in my studio (see pic in "show us your Kronos" thread) to counter-act this problem. But not every one, or every situation, is going to allow for this physical placement....and a contrast adjustment (software adjustment would be fine, no hardware knob required) would significantly enhance the Kronos screen functionality.

You are correct in all of your comments above....but my Kronos screen dims significantly, even set at full brightness, as the angle travels beyond 35 to 45 degrees.....which in a normal seated position, is a typical (for me anyways) distance.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8.

RonF
Platinum Member

Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject:

shap wrote:

All: the problem here isn't the fixed display position; it's the particular angle. It's a tough one to fix within the form factor constraints.

I respectfully must disagree with this statement (sorry shap). Sure it would be great to have an adjustable screen in hardware.....but we can concede that this would have added cost to Kronos, and ultimately was decided against. Would it be "better" to have one? of course! But is it "the problem" with the Kronos screen? Not really....its just the reality of the Kronos screen. "The Problem", as I see it, is that: being how the Kronos screen is in fact flat and flush with the Kronos casing....it has no contrast adjustment to allow optimal and functional viewing angle for the user.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8.

McHale
Platinum Member

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject:

shap wrote:

danatkorg wrote:

There is only a Brightness control... Sorry for the inconvenience.

Dan: Is there some other way to adjust LCD contrast?

It's in the Global settings and I think it's in the drop down.
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha).

shap
Full Member

Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject:

danatkorg wrote:

shap wrote:

At 45 degrees, the display is noticeably dimmer. When I look from above, I can mostly read everything. When I look from my seated position, the reduction in brightness is enough to eliminate my ability to raise the display.

Did you mean "...ability to read the display?"

If so, I don't know what to say.

Oops. Yes, that should have been "read". I don't have the sense that this is a pre-production issue. It's about what I would expect from an LCD panel with a resistive touch overlay. It wasn't my intention to be complaining in laborious detail. Rather, I wanted to describe precisely what my situation is so that it can be taken in as possibly useful feedback.

When I say that it "eliminates my ability read the display", I do not meant that the display goes dark. Rather, I mean that the dimming of the display interacts with the small font size in such a way that I can no longer read the text. Mind you, it's a squint for me when I'm looking dead-on. Again, trying to make my description precise here so that your team can reproduce and confirm what I am seeing.

Since the K arrived, I need to rearranging things, and this unit is about to go on to an APEX stand. That will give me the ability to play with angles of view a bit. I'll report back if I find an angle that works for me both seated and standing, or failing that, I can at least confirm that it's a "devil's alternative" sort of issue.

For reference, I'm 5'11", so I don't think I'm at either extreme for expected height of the user.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
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shap
Full Member

Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:49 pm Post subject:

danatkorg wrote:

Printing and binding the full 1500 pages or so may be costly; it might be reasonable to compare this with the cost of a low-end Kindle.

Assuming FedEx Office lets you print it at all (copyright issues), the print and bind will be around $100.

The 6" kindle versions don't do well on full-page PDFs. The DX will cost you $379, at which point (in my opinion) you might be better off stretching a little and picking up the low-end WiFi iPad2 at $499, and then buy the GoodReader app.

Matter of preference, but I found reading on the iPad much more pleasant than reading on the Kindle, and the iPad has other uses as well.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys

panrixx
Senior Member

Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 448
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall, UK

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject:

shap wrote:

For reference, I'm 5'11", so I don't think I'm at either extreme for expected height of the user.

So, at 6' 3" will the situation become better or worse for me?
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shap
Full Member

Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:56 pm Post subject:

RonF wrote:

shap wrote:

All: the problem here isn't the fixed display position; it's the particular angle. It's a tough one to fix within the form factor constraints.

Since we're saying exactly the same thing, I respectfully disagree that you disagree. Smile

As I say: the problem is not that the screen angle is fixed. The problem is that the particular angle at which it is fixed doesn't seem to work well for (some?) seated players. As you say above, the issue is the drop-off in brightness between 35 and 45 degrees.

But if Korg wanted to change the display angle (i.e. keeping it fixed), the enclosure would have to become a bit taller at the back. That is the form factor constraint. When I'm done playing around with it on the Apex stand, I'll be able to report back what angle worked for me and what the required height change on the enclosure would be. Then we can figure out whether the result still works for a standing player. I'm hopeful, but there's no substitute for testing it.
_________________
Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
Presonus Eureka (2x), TC Helicon VoiceOne
ADAM A7's and JBL 4328Ps, each for its purpose
Border Collies + Misc. Squeaky Toys

nowtime
Full Member

Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 216

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:00 am Post subject:

Agree about the knobs and sliders. I am a user of Ableton Live and control it with the BCF2000 and BCR2000 (amongst other things). I NEVER change pages on these controllers, all controls are dedicated. The pleasure of sliders/knobs never jumping or needing to catch is deep and very musical. In the case of the Kronos, the present setup is fine for studio work, but for live performance it is inferior. I sure do love this keyboard though....

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