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What if a there is a blackout while the K is streaming?
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GiantSonicRobot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:05 pm    Post subject: What if a there is a blackout while the K is streaming? Reply with quote

In the Quick Start Guide it is repeatedly pointed out that one should never ever turn the Kronos off while the the SSD is still being accessed (read or write).
Otherwise the disk can be permanently damaged.

What does this mean in terms of reliability of the Kronos for live performances?
Suppose there is a power outage while you are performing. Obviously all your devices would go silent instantly. However, as soon as the power is restored, all devices and Keyboards would simply restart and be ready to continue after a minute or so. The Kronos however might remain dead, since at the time of the power outage it was streaming from the SSD.

Is this a genuine possibility, or am I painting an overly bleak picture?


(For the record: Yes I know that ideally one should use a UPS.)
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MartinHines
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not worry about it. Technically, you should never turn off any computer while its hard drive is being accessed. However, people do it all the time.
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: What if a there is a blackout while the K is streaming? Reply with quote

GiantSonicRobot wrote:
In the Quick Start Guide it is repeatedly pointed out that one should never ever turn the Kronos off while the the SSD is still being accessed (read or write).
Otherwise the disk can be permanently damaged.

What does this mean in terms of reliability of the Kronos for live performances?
Suppose there is a power outage while you are performing. Obviously all your devices would go silent instantly. However, as soon as the power is restored, all devices and Keyboards would simply restart and be ready to continue after a minute or so. The Kronos however might remain dead, since at the time of the power outage it was streaming from the SSD.

Is this a genuine possibility, or am I painting an overly bleak picture?

(For the record: Yes I know that ideally one should use a UPS.)


I'm also curious. The dutch current is quite good but when playing in a small bar sometimes too much is requested from the mains and the group fuse needs to be switched on or replaced again. In this case I don't mind waiting for a few minutes (we could play a song without the need of a synth), but of course if the Kronos would die this is a real problem.

My assumption is that reading from an SSD cannot be a big problem but writing can be, so that would make the chance very low, but any chance is a chance. After all, the Kronos IS a computer so it might write data we do not know of (logging data etc).
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franzlp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a simple answer to this..... just get a UPS. Preferably an APC UPS and you will never have to worry about this. I live in a lightning prone area and believe me that a UPS is a life saver. Plus, if you get a good UPS you'll always feed the keyboard a clean source of power. Go get it now!
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McHale
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MartinHines wrote:
I would not worry about it. Technically, you should never turn off any computer while its hard drive is being accessed. However, people do it all the time.


But that's for one of two reasons:

1. If the drive loses power while it's writing data, the data will not be fully written and will be corrupt.

2. If the drive loses power while reading or writing, the read/write head will be hovering over a platter and not parked. ANY movement can easily destroy that area of the platter as well as the read/write head.


NEITHER of these are an issue with an SSD drive as long as you're streaming samples.
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McHale wrote:
MartinHines wrote:
I would not worry about it. Technically, you should never turn off any computer while its hard drive is being accessed. However, people do it all the time.


But that's for one of two reasons:

1. If the drive loses power while it's writing data, the data will not be fully written and will be corrupt.

2. If the drive loses power while reading or writing, the read/write head will be hovering over a platter and not parked. ANY movement can easily destroy that area of the platter as well as the read/write head.


NEITHER of these are an issue with an SSD drive as long as you're streaming samples.


I agree to this, however theoretically it is possible multiple blocks need to be written to be in a consistent status and if power fails between 2 a corrupt SSD might occur. Probably there will be a fail safe method built in (something like a Commit for transactions needing multiple changes) but some info would be appreciated. On the other hand, Korg needs to cover themself for 'high risk but very low chance' issues. Someone might sue them for when it might occur otherwise.
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franzlp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos is a computer. Just get a UPS. The money spent should not break any budget considering the expense folks would have just done by buying the Kronos.
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

franzlp wrote:
The Kronos is a computer. Just get a UPS. The money spent should not break any budget considering the expense folks would have just done by buying the Kronos.


It's not only the budget, it's carrying another device to a gig ... currently I have a very clean setup (2 synths, 2 monitor speakers, 1 stand and one backpack with cables) and a MIDI pedal box that fits together with one of the synths in one case. I can carry it all in three times walking.
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franzlp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will go from clean set up to no setup if you don't get the UPS especially at locations you would not have a clue as to the power stability. That is just the new reality with these new instruments. Sorry for the bad news.
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EnjoyRC
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPS
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101381

Only 15 lbs.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnjoyRC wrote:
UPS
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101381

Only 15 lbs.



It's about 20% of my total gear I need on stage. For something I probably never really need.
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franzlp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

..."you will never need" Hmm, sounds like famous last words. Trust me you will be happy to take this 20% more with you. Would you rather risk potentially having your Kronos trashed if it loses power for ANY reason. It's a no-brainer.
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

franzlp wrote:
..."you will never need" Hmm, sounds like famous last words. Trust me you will be happy to take this 20% more with you. Would you rather risk potentially having your Kronos trashed if it loses power for ANY reason. It's a no-brainer.


I added 'probably'.

However, I don't think it will be a real problem or at least chances will be incredibly low. let's suppose 0,1% of the people would EVER have a Kronos trashed. It needs to be repaired at a service center (in contrary to a PC which you just can reinstall). Let's say 25K Kroni will be sold (see another thread for a poll). That means 125 Kroni will be trashed. Korg would suffer an enormous dent in their reliability and the brand Korg would be hurt a lot, even if they would fix it for free.

I remove flash discs constantly (which are like SSDs), also quite fast after writing and never had any corrupt; once in a while the file is just not saved. I never use the 'unplug USB device safe' way.
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EnjoyRC
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think of it so much as 'being trashed', but even the slightest brown out, or black out, will reboot your Kronos. And with a near 2 minute boot time, you're standing on stage with your arms folded while the rest of the band plays on. Very awkward situation. Especially when your arrangements could be so keyboard centered.
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franzlp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We (OASYS folks) have discussed this before and sadly we've seen OASYS gear trashed due to the similar assumptions being made here. I think as it has been mentioned here the brown outs are even more sinister. That sudden shut off and turn on is murder on an instrument like the Kronos. Heed the good advice man. "an ounce of prevention..."
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