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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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 Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well I agree that an UPS is the best (and possibly only) solution, but as others already mentioned, I don't like the idea of dragging such a big device always with me while probably never used.
Dutch current works quite well, I only had a blackout only once and in bars 2 times (in about 20 years). But yes, there's always a chance it happens on day 1 I have a Kronos.
For burnouts on stage that's another problem. I have to admit the Kronos will maybe be my only source, but I might make a backup on the Triton and having only 1 keyboard available during those 2 minutes the Kronos starts up ... that would be not ideal but in emergencies possible.
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Well I agree that an UPS is the best (and possibly only) solution, but as others already mentioned, I don't like the idea of dragging such a big device always with me while probably never used.
Dutch current works quite well, I only had a blackout only once and in bars 2 times (in about 20 years). But yes, there's always a chance it happens on day 1 I have a Kronos.
For burnouts on stage that's another problem. I have to admit the Kronos will maybe be my only source, but I might make a backup on the Triton and having only 1 keyboard available during those 2 minutes the Kronos starts up ... that would be not ideal but in emergencies possible.
Edit: I'm going to start a poll 
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: | | It's about 20% of my total gear I need on stage. For something I probably never really need. |
I don't use a UPS in the studio or playing live BUT I do go through an APC power conditioner/voltage regulator. I'd say about half the places we play (VERY typical of outdoor shows) have under current or over current issues. One live show I played had power issues which made my Triton unusable. I had to power it off and use my M50 only, which apparently doesn't draw as much power or at least handles it better.
Here's what I use religiously at EVERY live show:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009RA60/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000G5YO9W&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1DEW7TQQBB16K6N5YZ7Z
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Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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This one looks cheap and not that heavy, but of course it's not a UPS. As said before I never had problems with bad voltage, except very occasionaly the fuse goes out (and all power is down). But I heard stories like you (probably in the US).
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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KapnKrunch
Junior Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | MartinHines wrote: | | I would not worry about it. Technically, you should never turn off any computer while its hard drive is being accessed. However, people do it all the time. |
But that's for one of two reasons:
1. If the drive loses power while it's writing data, the data will not be fully written and will be corrupt.
2. If the drive loses power while reading or writing, the read/write head will be hovering over a platter and not parked. ANY movement can easily destroy that area of the platter as well as the read/write head.
NEITHER of these are an issue with an SSD drive as long as you're streaming samples. |
Hi McHale -
Just a minor technical correction in your reply.
You are correct concerning #1 (data corruption), and your final point concerning the SSD, however with regard to #2, hard disk drives for years have had an automatic head parking feature when power drops below a threshold. A circuit in the drive detects an impending power failure, and uses residual capacitive energy to safely retract the heads. You can pull the plug on your PC today during full-blown disk activity, and there is zero risk of a head crash.
This idea was originally patented back in 1989 (ref: http://books.google.com/patents/about?id=jzQzAAAAEBAJ) for big, mainframe removable platter disk drives, and exists in virtually every relatively modern HDD today.
Cheers!
Bill |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| KapnKrunch wrote: | hard disk drives for years have had an automatic head parking feature when power drops below a threshold. A circuit in the drive detects an impending power failure, and uses residual capacitive energy to safely retract the heads. You can pull the plug on your PC today during full-blown disk activity, and there is zero risk of a head crash.
This idea was originally patented back in 1989 (ref: http://books.google.com/patents/about?id=jzQzAAAAEBAJ) for big, mainframe removable platter disk drives, and exists in virtually every relatively modern HDD today.
Cheers!
Bill |
COOL. I didn't know that. Do *ALL* HD's (laptop, desktop, SATA, ATA) feature that since 1989 or just that they have the technology?
Cool none the less. Thanks for the info!
-Mc
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Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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kbrkr
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2003
Posts: 804
Location: Savannah, Georgia USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: |
It's about 20% of my total gear I need on stage. For something I probably never really need. |
Be careful...Make sure your UPS is also a Voltage Regulator (AVR) like the unit displayed above. Not all UPS units have this feature. The AVR will ensure your voltage is maintained at a constant level when there is peaks and dips in the voltage. I experience this quite a bit playing outdoors or overloaded drops.
This is the unit I use;
APC XS 1000
http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BX1000G&tab=models
Boost Automatic Voltage Regulator. |
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franzlp
Full Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 193
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synthjoe
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 1011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | COOL. I didn't know that. Do *ALL* HD's (laptop, desktop, SATA, ATA) feature that since 1989 or just that they have the technology? |
They all do. That's the click what you hear when power is disconnected from the HDD in operation.
However, data corruption while writing is quite a real risk (whether mechanical storage or SSD). When the file is 'not written' on a flash memory card (as mentioned earlier), that is in fact already a form of data corruption. Explanation being that OS'es do the 'housekeeping' and update allocation tables only after a file has been successfully written. This is a kind of transaction handling - there will be no pointer to a file that is not fully written, but there might be orphaned (lost) blocks, as a result.
Anyways, while corruption has a quite real chance, it is rather a very careful preventive warning from Korg. On the other hand unplugging/un-powering devices without 'safe removal' and while in operation is certainly not a cood practice that should be recommended and/or favoured. |
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shap
Full Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 194
Location: US northwest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
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[quote="michelkeijzers"I agree to this, however theoretically it is possible multiple blocks need to be written to be in a consistent status and if power fails between 2 a corrupt SSD might occur.[/quote]
Yes. There are tricks you can do on a hard drive (like using the spindle as a generator for the last write-back) that cannot be done on an SSD. Further, the unit of write on an SSD isn't really a block down at the bottom, so the unit of corruption can be unpredictable.
Given the ever-falling cost of a UPS, it seems a bit silly not to use one.
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Motif XF8, Kronos-88 (ordered), V-Synth GT, DT-Extreme eDrums
PC Core i7-920/24GB/3TB (2x)
Motu 2408mk3 + 24I/O
Sonar Producer, everything EastWest
Brian Moore iGuitar+Roland GI-20, Composite Acoustics 6, 12 string guitars, Multiple Ovations from when they were still worth it
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michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| shap wrote: | | [quote="michelkeijzers"I agree to this, however theoretically it is possible multiple blocks need to be written to be in a consistent status and if power fails between 2 a corrupt SSD might occur. |
Yes. There are tricks you can do on a hard drive (like using the spindle as a generator for the last write-back) that cannot be done on an SSD. Further, the unit of write on an SSD isn't really a block down at the bottom, so the unit of corruption can be unpredictable.
Given the ever-falling cost of a UPS, it seems a bit silly not to use one.[/quote]
What I was talking about was more like that the changed blocks were copied to a different location. Then, by writing the block referring to the new block (see it like a folder) was copied last. If this last block is not written, everything is consistent but the last change(s) have not been performed. Otherwise everything is ok. This works assuming 1 block write can be done in an atomic action, but I am not an expert with ssd.
About the cost of a UPS: that is not a problem, but dragging it to me each gig and plugging it in every time (costs some time).
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Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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orpheus2006
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 597
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| KapnKrunch wrote: | | McHale wrote: | | 2. If the drive loses power while reading or writing, the read/write head will be hovering over a platter and not parked. ANY movement can easily destroy that area of the platter as well as the read/write head. |
You are correct concerning #1 (data corruption), and your final point concerning the SSD, however with regard to #2, hard disk drives for years have had an automatic head parking feature when power drops below a threshold. |
Unlike traditional HDDs, a SSD is not a electromechanical device containing spinning disks and movable read/write heads.
However, SSDs are more vulnerable to data loss with a sudden loss of power than HDDs. Here is some more background information:
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssd-power-going-down.html
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www.soundcloud.com/orpheus2006
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Korg M3-88 w/ EXB-Radias, Yamaha Motif Rack w/ PLG150-AN & PLG150-DR, Novation A-Station, RME Multiface II Audio Interface, Thinkpad T60 Notebook w/ Sonar X3 and various VSTi, Event TR8 monitors, Beyerdynamic DT-770 headphones |
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