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Bruce Lychee
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Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| PinkFloydDudi wrote: | | Bruce Lychee wrote: | | PinkFloydDudi wrote: | Of course the German grand piano is thick and tough in a band mix - just like an actual german grand piano would be. This isn't a "problem" with the Kronos - this is the "fault" of a user who is selecting the wrong instrument to play on stage in a full band environment.
Can't say "yamahas are good in a band context" - because all that says to me is the Yamahas don't actually sound like the real piano - instead they sound like an EQ'd synth piano to be used to cut through the band.
Despite popular belief, not even the Kronos can help the ignorant musician. Select your patches wisely and I have a feeling you will have no problems cutting through any mix. |
I guess you have never heard a Steinway used in a live band setting? Of course the right sound needs to be chosen, but I don't think identifying something as a German grand necessarily precludes it's usefulness in a live setting. Furthermore, is it really necessary to be calling the OP ignorant for choosing the wrong patch? |
I have actually. I'm not talking about any german grand...I'm talking specifically of the german grand sound on the Kronos. It is not a sound condusive to coming through in a mix. That isn't a "problem" with the Kronos as was stated.
As to the word "ignorant", sorry if anyone takes offense to it but look up the actual definition of the word.
(–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact:)
Yes, if you picked the german grand sound as a piano sound to stick out through a full band - you lacked the knolwedge of picking the right sound.
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As for Yamahas, regardless of what it tells you, the fact remains that their acoustic and digital pianos are used on many live stages. Given the fact that their digitals are sampled from their acoustics, I don't think it is a far stretch to think the underlying tonality is common and what makes them great in live settings. Or based on your logic, is the fact that Yamaha acoustics are widely used in band settings an indication that they don't sound like real pianos? |
Dude, roland, Korg, yamaha, kurzweil - all are used on many stages. So your logic does nothing to show why yamahas would be better than any of the rest.
I see just as many other manufacturers for the accoustic side of things as I do Yamahas as well. So trying to say "I saw one (or a couple) on stage therefore they must be good" doesn't fly.
There is a reason these nice keyboards come with multiple piano sounds. It is up to the informed user to pick the right ones. Picking that thick grand sound to cut through a band isn't the most informed of choices don't you agree?
Again, my point is that it is not a "problem" that one doesn't cut through the mix. The "problem" is the user picking the wrong patch, not the keyboard, and not the sound.
The OP lists the ability of sounds to cut through a band as a problem. It most certainly is not... |
You specifically said "of course the German grand isn't thick enough... Just like an actual German grand piano would be."
Perhaps I read what you said too broadly but it sounded like you were making a generalization about actual German grand pianos, which would include Steinways.
If you want to justify calling someone ignorant by couching it in a literal definition that is fine, but I think you would have to be ignorant to think that it doesn't carry any negative connotation.
As for the correlation between Yamaha acoustics and their DPs, It isn't about seeing them at a few shows. Their acoustics and digitals are the choice of many professional jazz and blues performers. I don't think that is a secret. It is hard to imagine that the DPs aren't chosen because they share a similar tone as the acoustics. Having owned the CP1 and played many Yamaha acoustics, I think there is definitely an effort on Yamahas's part to create an identifiable Yamaha sound.
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jimknopf
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Is anyone taking note of the original hints which work well here?  |
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PinkFloydDudi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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The Kronos German Grand has a specific sound correct? So when I referred to an actual german grand - why do you think I would be referring to one that the Kronos didn't immitate?
There is no "couching" in a literal definition. I'm using the word as it is intended to be used. Just because your definition has strayed from the actual (and factual) definition is not my problem, but yours. I'm also fine with it having some negative connotation to it. I think saying there is a "problem with a sound" when it is crystal clear you didn't pick the right sound, is a bit dumb.
Your comment that you see acoustic and digital yamahas used on stages by professionals. I can name many other manufacturers that also have acoustic and digital pianos on stages. So was your attempt at bringing up that you have seen it on stage a way to try and single Yamaha pianos out? Because you did a poor job at doing it.
I don't even actually know where you are going with that entire flawed bit of logic anyway? I don't care about a yamaha sound.
I don't go pick "Full band brass" patch sound and then complain it doesn't sound like a solo violin.
Nor should anyone pick a full grand piano sound then complain that it sounds like a full grand piano!
Really quite simple.
Again, this is not a "problem with the kronos" |
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aron
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Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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I have played lots of steinways live and they sound fine. The Kronos doesn't sounds like a real Steinway. Maybe their version of a recorded one.
I'm ignorant too. I tried to use it. But I'm smart enough to eq or to change the sound. 
Some of the posters here might be smarter than some people think.
At least I think so.
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PinkFloydDudi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | I'm ignorant too. I tried to use it. But I'm smart enough to eq or to change the sound.
Some of the posters here might be smarter than some people think.
At least I think so. |
Hey, people can have ignorant moments without being ignorant all the time! Matter of fact, I'd go so far as to say most of us have those moments.
I'm not even going to say I wouldn't have tried to use that german grand sound with my band!!! I most certainly would have (and likely would have had the same effect). I too would have been ignorant! (but OP saved me in advance!)
I wouldn't however come back and say there is a problem with that sound or the Kronos! |
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Bruce Lychee
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Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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You said it. Don't fault me for your lack of specificity. As I noted, perhaps a misinterpretation my part.
If you really don't see the prevalence of Yamahas on professional jazz and blues stages you must not get to those types of shows frequently. Between Yoshis, Kuumbwa, Villa Montalvo, Mountain Winery and the 2 decades I spent frequenting all the NY venues, my observation isn't based on seeing a couple of shows. It is also based on my personal experience with Yamahas.
I brought up Yamahas to point out that their tonal characteristic is one that is favored by many live jazz and blues players because it cuts through very well and because it is very different from the Kronos German. That applies to their digitals and acoustic pianos, which have related sounds. Other than Kawai, can you really name many other companies that have acoustics AND digitals on stage?
I understand there are dictionary definitions for words. I often admit to being ignorant when it comes to matters of which I have no or little knowledge. Nevertheless, I think calling someone ignorant, especially in the manner you did, is slightly offensive. I would have to imagine that run across similar sentiments if you go around calling people ignorant in that manner.
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RichF
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Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 435
Location: Hoboken, NJ
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi guys,
If you're using SGX-1 in a band context, I recommend you try lowering the "Velocity Intensity" parameter. It can be a quick way to increase your presence in a band.
When you add a compression effect to a piano, it allows quieter notes to come through the mix and tames louder notes, allowing you to carve out a more focused space in the mix, but it creates an unnatural decay. Velocity Intensity, on the other hand, gives you the same benefits of compression, but without the decay.
When you raise the Velocity Intensity, quieter notes will be even quieter- the opposite of compression. When you lower it below 0, however, the lower velocity notes will start to increase in volume. You'll still be triggering the same samples when you play softly, but they'll be louder. Your volume range is compressed, but your tone isn't.
Hope this helps,
-Rich
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Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| RichF wrote: | Hi guys,
If you're using SGX-1 in a band context, I recommend you try lowering the "Velocity Intensity" parameter. It can be a quick way to increase your presence in a band.
When you add a compression effect to a piano, it allows quieter notes to come through the mix and tames louder notes, allowing you to carve out a more focused space in the mix, but it creates an unnatural decay. Velocity Intensity, on the other hand, gives you the same benefits of compression, but without the decay.
When you raise the Velocity Intensity, quieter notes will be even quieter- the opposite of compression. When you lower it below 0, however, the lower velocity notes will start to increase in volume. You'll still be triggering the same samples when you play softly, but they'll be louder. Your volume range is compressed, but your tone isn't.
Hope this helps,
-Rich |
Very helpful. Thank you.
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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> Between Yoshis, Kuumbwa, Villa Montalvo, Mountain Winery and the 2 decades
Bruce,
I didn't know you were in the Bay Area! I miss it!
Pizza my Heart in Capitola @ 2:30am after the GIG!!!!!!! Pesto Pizza!
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Bruce Lychee
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Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | > Between Yoshis, Kuumbwa, Villa Montalvo, Mountain Winery and the 2 decades
Bruce,
I didn't know you were in the Bay Area! I miss it!
Pizza my Heart in Capitola @ 2:30am after the GIG!!!!!!! Pesto Pizza! |
Native NYer for 30 years but my last 11 have been in Northern California. I can't say they compare to the NY slice I grew up with, but Pizza My Heart and Amicis tend to be my go to places around here when I want a slice or pie.
Have you been to the Mountain Winery since the renovation? Much improved. Berkeley Greek, Montalvo and Mountain Winery are all great outdoor venues here.
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aron
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Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:17 am Post subject: |
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> Have you been to the Mountain Winery since the renovation? Much improved. Berkeley Greek, Montalvo and Mountain Winery are all great outdoor venues here.
No. I've played Montalvo - AWESOME! That was a great tour. Hollywood Bowl, Montalvo, Humphries.
I still love places like JJ's on Steven's Creek! So much character and characters!
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Bruce Lychee
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Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | > Have you been to the Mountain Winery since the renovation? Much improved. Berkeley Greek, Montalvo and Mountain Winery are all great outdoor venues here.
No. I've played Montalvo - AWESOME! That was a great tour. Hollywood Bowl, Montalvo, Humphries.
I still love places like JJ's on Steven's Creek! So much character and characters! |
Played it? Very cool. The last show I saw there was Buddy Guy, but I've seen Bela Fleck and a few other artists there as well. Really beautiful venue.
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aron
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Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Back on subject. I was able to take time today and go through my setup. With a combination of a brighter German grand, the velocity changes that Busch mentioned and EQ, I am happy with the sound I have now. Just have to test it live, but so far, very good!
In this case I was glad that combis reference programs because I changed the "master" program and now all of my combis are updated. GREAT!
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alantunucci
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Brasil
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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I always experienced this problem. I my case, most pianos sound bad when I use Mono Sound, and in the most situations, I use my M3 in mono, and will use Kronos too.
So, I ask: German and Japanese Grand sound good in mono?
I also agree with the guy that said that some pianos are good only for solo, and for a live, band situation, you have to choose another one, not that good for solo but better for that situation. |
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aron
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Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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> So, I ask: German and Japanese Grand sound good in mono?
Yes. In fact a lot of sounds sound great in mono with no changes.
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