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Bruce Lychee Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Devnor wrote: | Sani makes a good point about file management...its the achilles heel of my Fantom however the Jupiter 80 is an all new system. I made a post over on rolandclan to see if anyone in the know might shed some light. |
I see what you are saying based on your question at Rolandclan. You are talking abut sharing settings and files? I haven't even thought about that because I don't see myself needing to do that, but I'll take a closer look after I get home today. _________________ Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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Chriskk Senior Member
Joined: 10 May 2011 Posts: 349
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Sani wrote:
I don't need to play it to know where that keyboard delivers or where it fails. Why don't you get it?
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Congrats on your superhuman ability to accurately evaluate a musical instrument without playing it. |
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sani Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002 Posts: 354 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Bruce Lychee wrote: | sani wrote: | Being amazed about the number of tones is almost the same as being amazed about the number of multi samples in a keyboard. The tone/liveset is not your standard work area.
You use tones/livesets to create the final megapatch or call it whatever you like, on the jp80 it's the registration and there you have 256 user slots.
Not to mention that the ununderstandable crappy file system prevents you to load single registrations, depending on when and where you may need them.
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Good job of make something negative out of something positive. Whatever your final work area may be, how can having access to over 2000 factory tones and sets be anything but good? |
Where did I say that it's negative?
I just say that there is nothing to be amazed about the fact that the company programmed 2000 or 2500 tones. Well, it's surely good, but it's nothing special compared to other companies. If Roland had hired 20 more sound designers, the number would be 3500 or more. It's not negative, but I don't see a particular reason to point it out as something special. Every single keyboard today comes with dozens of sounds.
Bruce Lychee wrote: | There are 256 registration slots but multiple registrations that can be loaded. I'm not sure in that any particular situation I would need access to more than 256 registrations or "combis" at any given time. |
Well, I'm on my FG at number 170 for one band and about 40 songs. And that's what I created in just one year. The reason is because I step thru the setups with a switch pedal and one single song can easily use more than one setup, depending on the number of different sounds that I need on a song. I only dial the first setup manually and during the song I step up with the pedal. A single song with three choruses and three verses could in my way of work eat up to 6 memory locations. That's the way how I like to work and I don't like to think about how many memory slots I can spend for a song because a company gives me 5000 livesets and tones, but only 256 slots for using them in the way they are intended to be used (as a part of a registration).
Just because you don't need them or can't imagine that other people work differently, doesn't mean that 256 memory slots is a lot. And I absolutely don't understand what you mean by saying that multiple registrations can be loaded? Have you ever played live and load setups during the gig? Do you seriously think that loading a whole registration set is an option on stage?
Bruce Lychee wrote: | What is it that you don't understand about the file system? It is really straight forward, especially if you take the time to play the board. |
No, what is what you don't understand about the file system? It's the same crap that Roland uses on a couple of Fantom versions and on some other keyboards they make. I call it crap because you can't load a single patch/live set/registration but just the whole file. You either save all or load all. You can't load a single file, you can't exchange your files with friends, you can't make new ones and sell them and you can't buy them. Because anything of that what I mentioned will completely erase your work/project. That's what I meant with "file system". So, it's a pretty damn closed system and since I didn't play the jp80, I hope that all those tones are really unique and different and not like those on the FG, where you have 83 piano patches where the difference often is just in the length of the reverb tail.
And let me say it once again: I'm sure that the jp80 sounds terrific. I know the SN acoustic sounds because I have them in my FG. The problem is that this keyboard can't deliver as soon as you'll need more complex setups or a greater sound variety or more complex effect structures or some basic file handling needs. It's good as a second keyboard on a stand but as the only one on stage it is pretty much limited for the price Roland is asking for.
Edit:
I just checked the manual and the JP80 doesn't work with terms like save/load. You have backup and restore. You backup everything you created on the keyboard as a single monolith file and you load it back into the keyboard.
You can't even name or rename that backup file. So, I don't know how it looks like if you want to have different projects for different purposes. They probably all have the same name and you have to keep that mess somehow clean on your computer buy placing your different backups (with the same name! into different manually created folders.
I hope that at least some people realize why I call them idiots. |
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Bruce Lychee Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Dozens of sounds is bit different than 2000 tones and 2000 sets. No need to be amazed, but it is clearly a benefit regardless of the final workspace you choose to use.
If you truly need more than 256 registration items in any one gig, perhaps your approach works for you, but could be a bit more efficient? I bring up the ability to save registration setups simply because you can save different registration setups for whatever gig you might need. I'm not talking abut swapping an entire registry mid gig... Although you can do that quickly too.
As I already noted, I misunderstood the comment regarding the file system and will look into it first hand today for those interested.
I had the Fantom G as well. There isn't the breadth of SN tones you have on the Jupiter. Not even close. The synth section is not comparable. _________________ Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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sani Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002 Posts: 354 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Chriskk wrote: | Quote: | Sani wrote:
I don't need to play it to know where that keyboard delivers or where it fails. Why don't you get it?
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Congrats on your superhuman ability to accurately evaluate a musical instrument without playing it. |
Thank you.
Do you really need to play the keyboard before you understand that it has some limits and doesn't deliver what you need? Sorry, that's not superhuman, that's a most basic human cognitive function, to understand and be able to interpret what is written in the manual.
If I need a family car for me, my wife and my 4 children, I don't need to try a Lamborghini by myself. Looking just at a picture should be enough to eliminate it. But you would probably tell me that I need to test-drive it before I can accurately evaluate it!
![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) |
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RonF Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002 Posts: 1179 Location: San Diego, CA USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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sani wrote: |
I just say that there is nothing to be amazed about the fact that the company programmed 2000 or 2500 tones. |
No....your Fantom G is an example of this....hundreds and hundreds of patches...but tons of redundancy and lackluster/unusable patches. Its always been a sore spot for me with the FG. On the other hand....what IS impressive, is the depth, diversity, variety, and sheer number of meticulously programmed patches on the JP80. Its the polar opposite of the FG, in this regard.
The JP80 is not a workstation. It doesn't really have a file "system" as you describe, as compared to the Fantom G. You are 100% correct about the fiddly file system on the FG. For a workstation, with projects and sequencing, its pathetic. The JP80 is just a synth. Its file system is simply whats "on board". You can back up the status of the keyboard, and load the entire keyboard with a different set up...but thats it. What you get is what you set up on the keyboard within its patch system. Want to reinvent the keyboard set up...load a new set-up file. You can have unlimited set-ups. If 256 registrations is not sufficient for you to set up your keyboard for a single show.....then there is no further expansion possible. But, assuming that you can set up your show with less than 256 regs, then you will be fine. A "back up" is just a snap shot of the status of the keyboard. You can have multiple snap shots. However...I do see your point if you have created a patch in one back up file, and want to port it over to another back up file....not sure if you can load just one patch or not. Will have to explore at studio later. _________________ http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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sani Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002 Posts: 354 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Bruce Lychee wrote: | Dozens of sounds is bit different than 2000 tones and 2000 sets. No need to be amazed, but it is clearly a benefit regardless of the final workspace you choose to use. |
A liveset is a single patch on the jp80. Having 2500 livesets on the jp80 equals to having 2500 patches on another keyboard.
Bruce Lychee wrote: | If you truly need more than 256 registration items in any one gig, perhaps your approach works for you, but could be a bit more efficient? I bring up the ability to save registration setups simply because you can save different registration setups for whatever gig you might need. I'm not talking abut swapping an entire registry mid gig... Although you can do that quickly too. |
Let's not forget, the registration is the working mode on the jp80. Not the liveset or the tones. You edit them, you choose them to put them together into a registration. The registration is the final product. The registration is what you can access immediately by dialing in the number with the dedicated buttons below the keyboard. And there you are limited to 256. That's enough for any show I guess, but it means that over the years you'll have to swap between different saved complete setups (they are called backups). And I mentioned above how cumbersome it is on the jp80 because you can't even name them to have some clarity what the file actually contains.
Yes, I could work in another way, but the way how I work is the most efficient for me. I want to keep my hands free for playing and using the controllers while I press the switch and the next registration chimes in. In that way, memory can be used up pretty fast above 256. One registration doesn't equal to one song. And I refuse to understand why Roland still struggles with that memory. What is the purpose of having 2500 livesets if you can have just 256 or 512 at once at your fingertips, ready to be used in a registration? The remaining 2000 are just there. Nice to be played at home when you go into deeper levels, but not on the stage where you need fast access to your sounds.
Bruce Lychee wrote: | I had the Fantom G as well. There isn't the breadth of SN tones you have on the Jupiter. Not even close. The synth section is not comparable. |
I didn't mean the synth section, but the SN technology which you can have on the FG buy using arx cards. Of course, there isn't the breadth of SN tones, but since I have the arx brass card, I know how the trumpet sounds and I can imagine that the violin or another tone will sound equally great and expressive. |
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EvilDragon Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 1992 Location: Croatia
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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sani wrote: | What is the purpose of having 2500 livesets if you can have just 256 or 512 at once at your fingertips, ready to be used in a registration? |
You've hit the nail on the head with this. That's what escapes me too. Kronos? Almost 2000 combis (which is the top-level mode for Korg). Now THAT is what I call a decent amount of patch memory. Ridiculous limitation to 256 registrations on JP80 is a joke. |
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Bruce Lychee Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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EvilDragon wrote: | sani wrote: | What is the purpose of having 2500 livesets if you can have just 256 or 512 at once at your fingertips, ready to be used in a registration? |
You've hit the nail on the head with this. That's what escapes me too. Kronos? Almost 2000 combis (which is the top-level mode for Korg). Now THAT is what I call a decent amount of patch memory. Ridiculous limitation to 256 registrations on JP80 is a joke. |
Well the Kronos is a workstation and you can actually have 512 sets between just the upper and lower layers of the Jupiter if that is what you really need to do. Personally, that is just way beyond my needs in a synth. On the other hand polyphony limitations are real limitations for me and that is where the Jupiter is no joke. _________________ Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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Mystic38 Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2010 Posts: 266
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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lol.. +1
Chriskk wrote: | Quote: | Sani wrote:
I don't need to play it to know where that keyboard delivers or where it fails. Why don't you get it?
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Congrats on your superhuman ability to accurately evaluate a musical instrument without playing it. |
_________________ Korg PA4X, Nord Stage 3, Virus Ti Polar, Novation Nova II, Yamaha S70XS, MPC-X, TC Helicon Voicelive Rack, KRK VXT8 monitors, 2012 LP Standard, 1999 Am. hardtail Strat, Fender DRRI, Orange AD30HTC, Marshall Vintage Modern, 2 cans and a piece of string... |
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Bruce Lychee Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Sani,
I understand why your work method is not suited by the Jupiter. Workflow is key and one of the reasons why I love the Jupiter. If it doesn't work for you, it just doesn't.
I will say that I was an owner of the G8. That product had me convinced I was done with Roland. My feelings about the Jupiter could not be more opposite. _________________ Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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Chriskk Senior Member
Joined: 10 May 2011 Posts: 349
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | You've hit the nail on the head with this. That's what escapes me too. Kronos? Almost 2000 combis (which is the top-level mode for Korg). Now THAT is what I call a decent amount of patch memory. Ridiculous limitation to 256 registrations on JP80 is a joke. |
A Lamborghini accomodates 2 passengers whereas a school bus accomodates 50. A Lamborghini is a joke, right? |
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cello Platinum Member
![](images/avatars/9459347554e392a55d11e7.png)
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 Posts: 2152 Location: Glasgow, UK
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Chriskk wrote: | A Lamborghini accomodates 2 passengers whereas a school bus accomodates 50. A Lamborghini is a joke, right? |
Great point and totally agree. +1!
I think this JP80 is much misunderstood... but I love it and can't wait to use it with my O. _________________ Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5, |
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Sina172 Platinum Member
Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 1194
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by Sina172 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SanderXpander Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Why do you care? Just buy 40 to be on the safe side. |
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