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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kimu wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | aron wrote: | | The Kronos makes my Sequential Pro One sound mellow. I think it even makes my Micro Moog seem totally tame in comparison. |
Kronos does have a harder (a good thing in this respect) output stage than my Moog Voyager. But I sense it on most programs, not just MS20. Its part of the Kronos character....its "sharp"....more than "warm" to my ears. It has some bite....and really cuts into a mix well. |
I admit that still have to try kronos but my voyager sounds more analog and fat than the very good mp3 linked at the beginning... |
Yes Voyager is warmer.....and of course it is....it IS analog. But even the analog Voyager has a hard time achieving the "bite" of an MS20, analog or virtual. The MOOG sound is kinda "creamy" by nature, in the best possible way of course.
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http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| jimknopf wrote: | Wouldn't that raise doubts about the stated real VA oscillators (I mean oscillating in contrast to pcm waves)?
You find me confused.
RonF, can you clarify? |
Hi Jim. I'll have to check it out tonight. Away from it for a while. I think I remember they call it something else...like phase lock or something silly like that. Regardless....Syncing osc 1 and 2 is a feature which creates a more complex waveform (and the ubiquitous tone of sync)...even without it though...what "doubts" would it raise about the oscillators vs PCM? Not sure I understand your question....
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http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:17 am Post subject: |
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It would mean that it is no real VA from my view (virtual analog normally means recreating analog circuit logic), but rather another advanced ROMpler, like the Venom or the Gaia.
ROMpler technique is advanced enough meanhwile to do a lot of what analog synths could do, but not all. That's no judgement about sound generally, but about some limitations compared to analog synths (while offering other possibilities over these).
My personal approach isn't that of a purist, and would I use anything fitting my purpose. But I still have a clear personal preference for classical analog synths and for VAs delivering their complete functionality while coming close to their sound. |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| jimknopf wrote: | It would mean that it is no real VA from my view (virtual analog normally means recreating analog circuit logic), but rather another advanced ROMpler, like the Venom or the Gaia.
ROMpler technique is advanced enough meanhwile to do a lot of what analog synths could do, but not all. That's no judgement about sound generally, but about some limitations compared to analog synths (while offering other possibilities over these).
My personal approach isn't that of a purist, and would I use anything fitting my purpose. But I still have a clear personal preference for classical analog synths and for VAs delivering their complete functionality while coming close to their sound. |
Ok, I got ya now, Jim. Thanks.
Well...AFAIK JP-80 does not seek to model exactly the JP-8 in the same way that, say, the JP8V from Arturia does. Its not a point to point replica or model. I understand that it is a new synth architecture (much more like GAIA than JP8) which has modeled its oscillators and filters around the JP-8 sound....but Roland has been VERY quiet about EXACTLY HOW the JP-80 synth section was designed . Heck they have even hidden the basic documentation with the factory waves, specs, and preset lists.
Having said all that....you don't need to be a rocket scientist to tell, see, and hear the difference between an actual oscillator and a PCM wave. So the reference to ROMpler, IMO, does not apply here. I will concede your point, however, that a Virtual Analog by its nature is a virtual approximation of an analog circuit. How detailed or exacting the model is, is subjective at best. Especially if you are not Modeling a specific or particular circuit, but rather seek to create a virtual culmination, or a new, or even a fantasy analog circuit, even one perhaps that could never exist in real life due to physical limitations. The thing about "Virtual", is that it is not restricted by the same physical limitations of the actual components of a hardware circuit. So, whose to say that the designers of a particular VA choose to give its U.I. a feature here or a control there. All I'm saying is.....unless its an exacting model of a particular circuit....then all bets are off. The beauty of VA is not always the A.....sometimes its the V. In the end, its about the resulting sound.
I don't think anyone (certainly not me) is touting JP80 as some form of exacting model of a JP8, or of any real world analog circuit. I've always said: its sort of a "super GAIA"....everything we had hoped the GAIA would be....but wasn't. The real breakthrough for me with JP80 is the polyphony feeding the depth of programming layers. In the end...it sounds remarkably good, with a very warm analog sound and responsiveness, and it *can* sound spot on to a JP-8, in a Virtual sort of way.....
And....just one look at my studio pics abound, or my gear list below....you will see that I am no Purist either. Far from it. But I do enjoy understanding and deliberating over those types of details in gear. Once you own enough gear....it gets a little boring...you look a little deeper before making yet even more purchases, and this keeps it all interesting. But I am no Purist! Just sayin.....
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http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:28 am Post subject: |
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I used this sync sound today and it was incredible with subwoofers! The MS-20 is just the most insane synthesizer in a modern keyboard that I have tried!
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | | I used this sync sound today and it was incredible with subwoofers! The MS-20 is just the most insane synthesizer in a modern keyboard that I have tried! |
That's the sort of thing I love to hear!
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Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
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If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jimknopf wrote: | Now imagine Kronos combis relying on three VAs with a distinct flavor...
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Yes, imagine, and in many cases, that's what you will end up doing because a quick look at the performance meter will tell you that many of the factory combis start taxing the resources and note stealing meters without doing anything too crazy.
For a couple of guys complaining about the prevalence of Jupiter threads you guys seem to want to keep using it as a point of comparison. I have been busy on some projects the past few days and haven't had a chance to comment on some of the Jupiter bashing going on in here, but alas, RonF seems to be a determined voice of reason.
Aron, I think you did a great of creating a sound that would be very appropriate for someone looking to recreate that particular vintage sound. I think a little less Yngwie could have been in order, however, I appreciate the musicality of the results and love the tones you created.
Nevertheless, I think the Jupiter comparison is a bit ridiculous given that nobody buys a Roland to sound like a Korg. Anyone who does would probably benefit from a little more research. My favorite eras of music are the late 60s and 70s and I love that the Kronos can recreate many of those sounds. The Kronos also offers a broad pallets of tools to take your musical ideas forward as well. The being said, it isn't a Roland, and if I was looking to make music like Porcupine Tree, a V-synth and Jupiter would serve me better.
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Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64
Last edited by Bruce Lychee on Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:14 am Post subject: |
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I play like how I want to play. I am guitarist too so that shows. I can play Hawaiian music too with the best of them
Can we keep this on point with the ms-20 please?
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Bruce Lychee
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Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | I play like how I want to play. I am guitarist too so that shows. I can play Hawaiian music too with the best of them
Can we keep this on point with the ms-20 please? |
Aron, you play great. I was just saying I would have liked something less frenzied so I could focus on the tone in slower changes.
As far as keeping it on point, I was just pointing out that complaining about the proliferation of Jupiter threads and discussions is somewhat ridiculous when you are bringing up the Jupiter yourself... Of course only to bash it.
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Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce Lychee wrote: | | so I could focus on the tone in slower changes. |
But that was not the point of the sound aron wanted to showcase, IMHO. That sound (talking about the sound in OP post) is all about frenzy and madness! Of course it would call for good ol' shreddin'!  |
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Bruce Lychee
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Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: |
But that was not the point of the sound aron wanted to showcase, IMHO. That sound (talking about the sound in OP post) is all about frenzy and madness! Of course it would call for good ol' shreddin'! |
Point taken. I did really enjoy the distinctly guitar influenced playing.
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Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:33 am Post subject: |
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I think if you read my posts regarding the Jupiter I never bashed it. Honestly I feel it was hyped too much that's why I went back. I played it 4 times in 3 different stores. The Kronos lived up to the hype that I heard with the exception of the polyphony. This is only my opinion.
The only reason I brought up the thread mention was that here's is a Kronos forum with 2 people that own it, yet the forum is somewhat dominated by the mention of the Jupiter. I guess now I can understand why some people dislike mentions of the PC3.
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind specific reasons why the Jupiter is so great. Like examples of sounds that are so amazing. Or perhaps reasons why the engine is so good.
I think I've said it before but I like Roland keyboards. I worked closely with Roland developing software for their devices. I am definitely not a Roland hater.
I will try and post useful programs that I may create that may help others.
I will try and keep on topic more. Thanks!
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | I think if you read my posts regarding the Jupiter I never bashed it. Honestly I feel it was hyped too much that's why I went back. I played it 4 times in 3 different stores. The Kronos lived up to the hype that I heard with the exception of the polyphony. This is only my opinion.
The only reason I brought up the thread mention was that here's is a Kronos forum with 2 people that own it, yet the forum is somewhat dominated by the mention of the Jupiter. I guess now I can understand why some people dislike mentions of the PC3.
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind specific reasons why the Jupiter is so great. Like examples of sounds that are so amazing. Or perhaps reasons why the engine is so good.
I think I've said it before but I like Roland keyboards. I worked closely with Roland developing software for their devices. I am definitely not a Roland hater.
I will try and post useful programs that I may create that may help others.
I will try and keep on topic more. Thanks! |
Just to make one point Aron....I think the reason why there has been an "uptick" in Jupiter references and/or threads in the past 2 and half weeks, is simply because the JP80 was just finally released for sale (in the USA) in the past *2 and half weeks*. That comes after months of speculating and wondering about what Roland's "answer" to Korg's "Game Changer" actually *is*, and how it stacks up.
For better or worse....Roland's marketing strategy was very different than Korg's. Korg really put out tons of details about its highly complex Kronos machine right out of the gate, and showcased all of these details in an abundance of videos, documentation, and forum support. Not to mention that it was pretty clear right away that Kronos was a successor of the Oasys, so it was easy to fully understand what Kronos was, and what it included, and perhaps to focus on its enhancements over the Oasys.
Roland however kept pretty quiet about the JP80's details during these months. They really focused hard on the Supernatural thing...without saying too much more about the synth. In typical Roland fashion, the Manual, once released, was fairly straight forward and short. And all of this surrounding the release of an entirely new product line....JP80 is not the successor of anything directly...its a new paradigm....a new product concept, and a new product lineage. Sure we *now* understand (in the last 2 and a half weeks) that is has GAIA and Fantom cues which have carried forward into it....but for the most part, its a new beast....and none of us had any idea what exactly to expect with THIS "game changing" competitor.
So is it really such a surprise....or such a big deal...or such a problem for anyone...that many Kronos owners, and prospective Kronos owners...all of which who have or contemplate spending big money on the latest in high tech keyboard technology...have an interest in finding out exactly what the JP80 has to offer?
And, so, here you have two dedicated Kronos owners...who both have been proud and articulate supporters of the Kronos on this forum, who happen to actually, finally, purchase the JP-80 and can take it home and really dig in. And they offer the unique perspective of being a happy Kronos owner rather than a wholly biased Roland "fan-boy", able to make direct comparisons between the two keyboards and share balanced information. I just cannot see how YOU, who has indeed been one of the most vocal objectors about Jupiter talk...as if it somehow threatens the Kronos, or steals its, yours, or this forums purpose....how you cannot see beyond your own apparent personal feelings.....and just let the peeps on here experience the excitement of ALL of the new tech and flagship gear which has come in to the market right now.......especially coming off the past 3 years of economic recession where the big 3 were predominantly releasing the lowest end of "affordable" gear in decades. I'm thrilled to have *anything* significant to talk about!
No disrespect intended Aron.....just wish you would ease up a bit about it all.....Let people discuss what they feel. JP80 talk will die down in a few weeks or less. Its just *new* right now. We'll all be here discussing and supporting the Kronos for years to come...because Kronos is THAT deep. Trust me....in a year or two, some other keyboard will come out too, that we all have yet to even fantasize about, and we'll all be discussing its pros and cons and ins and outs.....then too. Its just part of the process. Live and let live, my friend......
Ok...That's end of my "one point". 
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:01 am Post subject: |
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The ms-20 patch was great tonight. I will follow up with some modifications.
Aron
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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Mystic38
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2010
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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You are completely incorrect
This is a thread about the ms20, but FYI the jp80 is not "like the Gaia" in any way other than it has black and white keys. Roland employees have stated categorically that there are modeled oscillators and there are additionally PCM waves..
| jimknopf wrote: | It would mean that it is no real VA from my view (virtual analog normally means recreating analog circuit logic), but rather another advanced ROMpler, like the Venom or the Gaia.
ROMpler technique is advanced enough meanhwile to do a lot of what analog synths could do, but not all. That's no judgement about sound generally, but about some limitations compared to analog synths (while offering other possibilities over these).
My personal approach isn't that of a purist, and would I use anything fitting my purpose. But I still have a clear personal preference for classical analog synths and for VAs delivering their complete functionality while coming close to their sound. |
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Korg PA4X, Nord Stage 3, Virus Ti Polar, Novation Nova II, Yamaha S70XS, MPC-X, TC Helicon Voicelive Rack, KRK VXT8 monitors, 2012 LP Standard, 1999 Am. hardtail Strat, Fender DRRI, Orange AD30HTC, Marshall Vintage Modern, 2 cans and a piece of string... |
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