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Kronos vs M3... for synth sounds only, much difference?
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yeloop
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:08 am    Post subject: Kronos vs M3... for synth sounds only, much difference? Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

I'm looking to update my Triton, and am in a bit of a quandry.

This is my upper-tier keyboard (I use a Kurzweil PC3x for piano and EP etc), so I'll be going for the 73 note version.

At the moment, I can get a brand new boxed M3-73 for $2,499 in Sydney.

The best price I've been quoted for the Kronos-73 is $3,500, so it's a $1k difference.

Having spent time playing both, I agree the Kronos has really amazing piano and acoustic sounds. However, I'll mainly be using this second layer keyboard for synth sounds and some organs...

So... is it worth spending the extra grand on the Kronos-73? Or for synth sounds, is it very similar to the M3?

For gigs, I really like the industrial strength build of the M3 (those massive metal end panels make the whole thing feel so solid!) so in some ways I'd prefer to go with the M3. However, this will be a synth I keep for the next 6 or 7 years so I don't want to make the wrong decision.

I'd love advice from someone who is familar with both (all those who are lucky enough to have a Kronos already... and perhaps had an M3 before that?).

Thanks in advance!
Mike
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Sina172
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:00 am    Post subject: Live use Reply with quote

I've been reading these forums for a while now but this is my first post.
Sina, with all due respect, I think you might be hurting your case more than helping it. Every single post I've seen you make is so hysterically over the top lauding the Oasys/Kronos, that I at least can't really take your opinion seriously anymore. I watched you tell a guy that he "failed" (at life in general, I suppose) for not taking a mortgage to get an Oasys.

That said, I honestly don't mean this first post to be an attack on you, I rather hoped that with your extensive experience with the Oasys, you might have some tips for the OP on why the Oasys/Kronos is worth that extra grand. Considering HIS situation, of course.

For instance;
I have neither an Oasys nor an M3, but have played with both for some long afternoons - my piano teacher at the conservatory has the M3 and we went out to check the Kronos together. I have a Triton Extreme at the moment, also as my top tier keyboard. On the bottom is a Nord Stage classic. I also play a lot live so I think I know where you're coming from.

I would say that probably the biggest differences FOR YOU are functional, and not in the sound necessarily. Yes, the Kronos has better DACs and what not, but plenty of high-level pros play with M3s and it can sound just fine in a band.
The main differences in functionality would be
1. The smooth sound transition, always useful live
2. The synth modeling engines, and thus;
3. The ease of programming for actual synth sounds
I have the MOSS board in the Extreme, and have heard and seen the Radias Board in the M3, and neither of them come close to the easy and inviting way of programming the MS20 or Polysix on the Kronos. Unless perhaps you get the actual Radias to sit next to your M3, but then the prices will be higher than you quoted for it, making the difference even smaller.

The main reason to mention this is that I don't program the MOSS board nearly as often as I thought I would when I got it. The sounds are decent enough, it's just that when you want to make a "regular" analog synth patch, you have to deal with 5 EGs, 4 LFO's, tons of waveshaping features, mixers, etc. All put down in submenu after submenu. When playing with the Polysix, I had a pleasing brassy stab within 2 minutes, and two minutes later the same thing had become a bass, then an arp with slow PWM and so on. And that was just the Polysix engine, quite separate from the PCM-playing engine (HD-1) that is relatively similar to the one in the M3 (EDS)

So depending on the way you work and how much you like to program, I would say that yes, the Kronos is worth the extra money mainly because you'll be inspired by the ease of programming for the synths.

If it helps at all, I ordered a Kronos 88 and decided to get rid of the Nord. I like the Nord, it just doesn't always really cut through the band, and there are very few things to do about that on the machine itself (limited EQ/number of piano sounds).
Usually, I play my synth sounds on my top tier board, the extreme. I have a lot of pre-programmed stuff on there and thought about a Kronos 61, but then I'd have to redo a lot of patches. I figured in the songs that are really synth based, there's no real need to play piano or rhodes with my left hand, so I might as well use the Kronos 88. That way I have the nice piano and rhodes when needed, all the new nice sounds and programmability from it, and still all my patches from the extreme.

If there's a specific sound/song where I need a synth-weighted keyboard to play a sound from Kronos, I put the Extreme to sequencer mode, midi channel 2, volume muted, and program a patch on Kronos with (for instance) piano from its own keyboard and the special synth sound on channel 2. Allows for quick switching on the Extreme from controlling vs playing its own sounds.
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RonF
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos vs M3... for synth sounds only, much difference? Reply with quote

yeloop wrote:


I'd love advice from someone who is familar with both (all those who are lucky enough to have a Kronos already... and perhaps had an M3 before that?).


Well....that would be my situation. and I am a synth focused person more than keys and organs, so to speak.

The difference in price you illustrate is around $1000. So the question is, do you get MORE or BETTER synth horsepower in Kronos than you do in M3 to equal a $1000 in value? And I say.....100% yes. In particular if you consider that you would need to add in a Radias card, at approx an additional $400 cost, just to even approach the synth horsepower on Kronos (it would be most similar to AL-1). But you would still lack MOD-7 (which in my view is the most interesting and exciting engine in Kronos, and miles beyond the sonics you can get on an M3, even with a Radias card). Not to mention MS20 and Poly Six.....and I say you have to throw in STR1 because its a synthesists toolbox for creative sounds. And then, its not just all of those engines independently, but also the way you can integrate them, and process them through one another, all adding up to a higher level of creative potential. And then of course you have other fundamental features such as HDR, SST, SSD, a MUCH more friendly interface for programming, Set List, etc.....and does all this add up to an approx $600 increase in value........Helz Yea!

No question....I have barely even thought about my M3 since getting Kronos.
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even just speaking from specs and no hands-on experience (although I've tried the M3 and the OASYS), I have to say that I think you'd be missing something obvious if you can't see the difference.

The M3 is simple sample playback with filtering. Its pretty good to be honest. Then you add the radias for more pure synthesis (not specifically just analog by all means, with its waveshaping and other digital-esq facilities).

Thats two or maybe three technologies at a push.

Now the KRONOS is the only thing which comes anywhere near close to what you have on a modern workstation PC but with the integration and consistency and reliability of dedicated hardware. You've got 9 synths. nine. Most of those incorporate several 'technologies' (by same measure that I used for M3 + EXB Radias).
Sample playback is just one. Subtractive is just another.
The emulations of polysix and MS20 are ideal for many many classic and experimental synth sounds. They are just two great synths (speaking from my experience with the software).
CX3 again, a dedicated organ engine is always fun to play with.

By comparison with the rest of the market at the moment, you are effectively getting 9 keyboard synths in one.

To get the equivalent functionality, you'd need to buy an M3, a full Radias, NI FM8 (and a PC to run it on) or an FS1R or similar, Korg's MS20 and Polysix software, or the real thing, actually a handful of vintage EPs and effects processors like amps and top-notch reverbs and so on.
And even then, they wouldn't all run together as nicely. And that's still only scratching the surface when you consider what you can do with combis, vector modulation, KARMA, the control surface, the sequencer, etc.
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RonF
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X-Trade wrote:
You've got 9 synths. nine.


while I agree wholeheartedly with this excellent post.....

There really isn't 9 "synths"....as much as 9 engines....of which 6 are "synth" engines (calling STR-1 a synth, because it can be used as such).

But what is cool about the Kronos is you could take the EP-1 electric pianos and route them through one of the synth engines.....therefore creating amazing and uncharted sounds. So more directly....the Kronos is one big synth with 6 unique and routable synth architectures on board. (sounds VAST).

Its a classic case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.....all VERY amazing indeed.
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Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8.
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Zeroesque
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that for synth sounds especially, there is a big difference. You're also going to run some organs? Maybe it's because I've owned a Hammond, but I can't stand organ samples. The CX-3 feels and sounds very much like an organ.

If you're really talking about purchasing either instrument new, then the difference in price makes the Kronos absolutely worth it. A used M3, though would be a more difficult price/performance comparison. I'll put it this way, though: after owning many Trinities and Tritons, I can say that the M3's sound didn't really inspire me in any new way. I know it has more features. The Kronos, however, has more features and makes me want to play it constantly because of the sounds.

If you're really going to use one synth as your main 'board for the next several years, get the Kronos. You will not be sorry.
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chilly7
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello yeloop


It's really strange that u sey that kurzweil pc3x good for pianos, in fact i really hate it's pianos,

there is no singel present in pc3 that i like
kurzweil pc3x or pc3k8 does not not really have any good demos over Internet that shows it's power for synth sounds but for synth sounds it's amazing!!! While I do agree that Kronos sound quality will be better then Kurzweil pc3, pc3 has many unique futures that even Kronos or Oasys does not have.
I spend alot of time with my own editing and programing and possibilities of pc3 VAST engine and KDFX are amazing!!!

so what i want to say that it is strange u to say that pc3x good for piano sounds, i guess it has the worst pianos out of Roland Yamaha or Korg, but for synth sounds it is really impessive.

Pc3x or pc3K8 has very interesting keybord, actualy i used to hate piano action keybords but that which is on pc3x or pc3k8 is very unique because actualy it's lighter then most piano action keyboards and it has quick spring relise which is good compomise for playing synth or organ sounds as well. this keybords is not realistic representatio of a piano keyboards but it is extremly amazing for piano playing and also comfortable playing of synth and organ sounds and it really easy acurately to controll dinamic with it unlike with synth action keybords. I hope with next Big thing from Kurzweil thay will keep the same philosophy for 88 keys keybord

p.s. Speaking about Kronos, u should know that Kronos 73 keyes unlike on M3 73 are piano action, so if u want Kronos with synth action u have only 1 choise is 64 keys.

And I strongly agree with awrybody that don't get m3, get Kronos, it 10 time much more better then m3
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EXer
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos vs M3... for synth sounds only, much difference? Reply with quote

Hi yeloop,

Imo the acoustic pianos and the electric pianos are not the strongest point of the Kurz.

If you finally chose a Kronos over an M3, I would suggest to try out the acoustic pianos and the electric pianos of the Kronos and to compare them to those of the PC3X.

You may end up getting the Kronos 88 and selling the Kurz...
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Vlad_77
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chilly7 wrote:
Hello yeloop


It's really strange that u sey that kurzweil pc3x good for pianos, in fact i really hate it's pianos,

there is no singel present in pc3 that i like
kurzweil pc3x or pc3k8 does not not really have any good demos over Internet that shows it's power for synth sounds but for synth sounds it's amazing!!! While I do agree that Kronos sound quality will be better then Kurzweil pc3, pc3 has many unique futures that even Kronos or Oasys does not have.
I spend alot of time with my own editing and programing and possibilities of pc3 VAST engine and KDFX are amazing!!!

so what i want to say that it is strange u to say that pc3x good for piano sounds, i guess it has the worst pianos out of Roland Yamaha or Korg, but for synth sounds it is really impessive.

Pc3x or pc3K8 has very interesting keybord, actualy i used to hate piano action keybords but that which is on pc3x or pc3k8 is very unique because actualy it's lighter then most piano action keyboards and it has quick spring relise which is good compomise for playing synth or organ sounds as well. this keybords is not realistic representatio of a piano keyboards but it is extremly amazing for piano playing and also comfortable playing of synth and organ sounds and it really easy acurately to controll dinamic with it unlike with synth action keybords. I hope with next Big thing from Kurzweil that will keep the same philosophy for 88 keys keybord

p.s. Speaking about Kronos, u should know that Kronos 73 keyes unlike on M3 73 are piano action, so if u want Kronos with synth action u have only 1 choise is 64 keys.

And I strongly agree with awrybody that don't get m3, get Kronos, it 10 time much more better them m3


Hi chilly7,

As a proud PC3 owner I MOSTLY agree with all that you have posted. The piano in the PC3 in no way can touch the Kronos, but, to be fair, Kronos is streaming a 10(?) GB piano non-looped and THAT alone will make it more realistic. I have always applauded Kurzweil for the fact that these instruments allow for amazing explorations without a huge sample set. Kurzweil DOES make you work a LOT harder because you have to think out of the box. I would venture to say that until Kronos, Kurzweil was the only manufacturer of the big companies that took an approach that approximated the old modular days. I will have to post a FAT pad/lead combination I made on the PC3 using a CP-70 as the basic sample (keymap in Kurz speak). You would not know that the sample was a CP70.

I do like some of the presets in the PC3. Fitty Fitty Lead is a GREAT patch. It CUTS through as a synth SHOULD. Gothic Climax is simply one of the BEST and most POWERFUL and dynamic orchestral patches I have EVER encountered in a hardware synth.

But, many of the presets do NOT give a taste of what is POSSIBLE with a PC3. But you know, I think the same can be said about any workstation. Patches give us a basic idea of the SOUND, but they do not give us a sense of the SYNTHESIS possibilities. Synthesis wise, the Fantom X (and G) are NOWHERE near as powerful and flexible as a PC3. BUT, Artemiy's soundsets and Tweakbooks for these instruments literally transform them! My Fantom X STILL sounds amazing and all the more after my working with the Tweakbook.

Kurzweils are GREAT synthesizers but you have to get your hands dirty and not be afraid to experiment.

Even the patches in Kronos really do not represent the instrument that well. But give a listen to what aron is doing with the MS-20 engine and what Sharp has created with Kronos Assault and I believe that you get a MUCH better sense of the power of this beast. We make synths our own by doing with them what they were made to do: make our OWN patches then play them! Wink

Ahimsa,
Vlad
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RonF
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vlad_77 wrote:

As a proud PC3 owner I MOSTLY agree with all that you have posted.


I think this thread should be moved to the General Synthesizers Forum now!


Wacky
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Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8.
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chilly7
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vlad_77 wrote:
chilly7 wrote:
Hello yeloop


It's really strange that u sey that kurzweil pc3x good for pianos, in fact i really hate it's pianos,

there is no singel present in pc3 that i like
kurzweil pc3x or pc3k8 does not not really have any good demos over Internet that shows it's power for synth sounds but for synth sounds it's amazing!!! While I do agree that Kronos sound quality will be better then Kurzweil pc3, pc3 has many unique futures that even Kronos or Oasys does not have.
I spend alot of time with my own editing and programing and possibilities of pc3 VAST engine and KDFX are amazing!!!

so what i want to say that it is strange u to say that pc3x good for piano sounds, i guess it has the worst pianos out of Roland Yamaha or Korg, but for synth sounds it is really impessive.

Pc3x or pc3K8 has very interesting keybord, actualy i used to hate piano action keybords but that which is on pc3x or pc3k8 is very unique because actualy it's lighter then most piano action keyboards and it has quick spring relise which is good compomise for playing synth or organ sounds as well. this keybords is not realistic representatio of a piano keyboards but it is extremly amazing for piano playing and also comfortable playing of synth and organ sounds and it really easy acurately to controll dinamic with it unlike with synth action keybords. I hope with next Big thing from Kurzweil that will keep the same philosophy for 88 keys keybord

p.s. Speaking about Kronos, u should know that Kronos 73 keyes unlike on M3 73 are piano action, so if u want Kronos with synth action u have only 1 choise is 64 keys.

And I strongly agree with awrybody that don't get m3, get Kronos, it 10 time much more better them m3


Hi chilly7,

As a proud PC3 owner I MOSTLY agree with all that you have posted. The piano in the PC3 in no way can touch the Kronos, but, to be fair, Kronos is streaming a 10(?) GB piano non-looped and THAT alone will make it more realistic. I have always applauded Kurzweil for the fact that these instruments allow for amazing explorations without a huge sample set. Kurzweil DOES make you work a LOT harder because you have to think out of the box. I would venture to say that until Kronos, Kurzweil was the only manufacturer of the big companies that took an approach that approximated the old modular days. I will have to post a FAT pad/lead combination I made on the PC3 using a CP-70 as the basic sample (keymap in Kurz speak). You would not know that the sample was a CP70.

I do like some of the presets in the PC3. Fitty Fitty Lead is a GREAT patch. It CUTS through as a synth SHOULD. Gothic Climax is simply one of the BEST and most POWERFUL and dynamic orchestral patches I have EVER encountered in a hardware synth.

But, many of the presets do NOT give a taste of what is POSSIBLE with a PC3. But you know, I think the same can be said about any workstation. Patches give us a basic idea of the SOUND, but they do not give us a sense of the SYNTHESIS possibilities. Synthesis wise, the Fantom X (and G) are NOWHERE near as powerful and flexible as a PC3. BUT, Artemiy's soundsets and Tweakbooks for these instruments literally transform them! My Fantom X STILL sounds amazing and all the more after my working with the Tweakbook.

Kurzweils are GREAT synthesizers but you have to get your hands dirty and not be afraid to experiment.

Even the patches in Kronos really do not represent the instrument that well. But give a listen to what aron is doing with the MS-20 engine and what Sharp has created with Kronos Assault and I believe that you get a MUCH better sense of the power of this beast. We make synths our own by doing with them what they were made to do: make our OWN patches then play them! Wink

Ahimsa,
Vlad


Hello Vlad

i am saying that kurzweil is really amazing for synth sounds but i am not indorsed by Kurzweil in anyway. actually i still banned at kurzweil forum don't remember why maby because i called the administrator of that forum an idiot? lol Laughing
but any way to be fair right now at my personal opinion Kronos is not better for synth sounds then pc3 and pc3 is not better then kronos.
because all of them has some unique future which another lucks.
so at my opinion befor the next Kurzweil Big Thing for synth sounds both Kronos or pc3 will be great. but infact i have to admit that Kronos sound quality have to be better.

p.s.
but speaking about me, i have created so many complex synth programs which takes a full advantage of kurzweil VAST and KDFX in pc3 that it is just not possible to recreat on any other synth....

I was just looking over the inernet and i found some interesting programs for buy which give a flavor of what pc3 can really do. as i understand thay did not use any new samples thay use all factory samples and it is all just magic of programing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09m7NYMCLk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8a9FZM3lhw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IbArtRm2Iw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KlnBbkr-JA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hny7gzHXmuY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
as for me i can program all that by myself but for begginers i would be a nice starting point of their own programming Very Happy
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Last edited by chilly7 on Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.


Kurzweil-speak that wasn't started by me.




Amazing. Laughing


@Vlad_77: slight correction - German grand is 4.7 GB, and Japanese grand is 4.7 GB. So Kronos is not streaming 10 GB... not at once, unless you make a combi of German and Japanese grand. Wink


Oh, and please, PLEASE, PM me that fat pad using CP-70 keymap. I am very interested! Thanks Smile
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jerrythek
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To speak directly to your situation and needs:

You'll get real organ sounds with full drawbar control and the real control of an organ (percussion, C/V etc.)

You'll get synthesis that gives you real synced oscillators, pulse width modulation and portamento, things that just can't be done right with sample-playback.

And yes, you'll get multiple synth engines that will give you a broader choice of synthesis "character".

Of course there's more, but these points are the heart of what you said you're asking of your top tier.

If you can come up with the money it will be worth it, for sure.

Jerry


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madbeatzyo111
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RonF wrote:
Vlad_77 wrote:

As a proud PC3 owner I MOSTLY agree with all that you have posted.


I think this thread should be moved to the General Synthesizers Forum now!


Wacky


I agree. This forum is about JP80 only and it's a little strange that we have such active threads on completely non-directly competing keyboard synths. Frankly it's beginning to bother me a little and I ask kindly that you all cease and desist.

Now let's get back to JP80 talk.
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