Korg Forums

aron · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:10 am Post subject:

>I can do without your condescending bullshit too, but I would say that perhaps relying on what you know hits the sweet spot for players like you. Others might appreciate a different approach and the results, and might not fear opening their minds to the possibilities.

Whatever Bruce. Whatever. Did you read the parts of the manual I mentioned? Did you open YOUR MIND?

I typed up a response but....

Forget it.
_________________
Kronos, PC361

Bruce Lychee · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856

SanderXpander · Platinum Member Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 2224

I agree with you that the Jupiter sounds wonderful, and that is the main thing to judge it by. But since for nearly everbody, money and space are serious considerations, the Jupiter not doing sync can be seen as a drawback, simply because sync is and has been a staple of synth programming almost back to the beginning.

Again, I respect the JP80 for what it is. But I sense the kind of "don't attack my favorite toy" feeling from you that seemed to annoy you so much in the Kronos owners.
It is what it is. Ultimately, your JP80 isn't even in the slightest affected by my opinion of it. It's all good Smile

aron · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:22 am Post subject:

Yeah, I'm done with this thread. Continue on if you want.
_________________
Kronos, PC361

sani · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:30 pm Post subject:

It would be sad if people who are considered as having modest and mostly well argumented posts start "fighting" because of different opinions.

But I have to say this:

If one person says

Bruce Lychee · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856

Bruce Lychee · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856

Sani,

The only reason things turn into fights is because people cant resist getting personal over discussions about inanimate objects. Nevertheless, I am guilty of responding in kind.

I can respect your opinion, however, I do believe the sounds you can create and how they can be used is all that matters, as they are the only things that end up in the music. That opinion might not be shared by you, however, unless you point me to a synth that can replicate the Jupiter sounds and be used in the way the Jupiter can be used, talking about filters, syncs, etc. means very little. Roland has chosen a different approach on the Jupiter and it yields great sonic results. The JP8000 is an entirely different beast that can be appreciated for what it does... but it doesn't do Jupiter, so it has its own limits.
_________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64

Bruce Lychee · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856

sani · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject:

Bruce Lychee · Platinum Member Joined: 16 Jun 2011 Posts: 856

Sani,

I can respect your opinion on the matter and certainly think more tactile controls would have benefited the Jupiter. I am all with you on the MFX routing and hope it can be updated in a future OS.

I also know the Jupiter 80 is not the JP8 or the Kronos synth engines. I don't think it was ever meant to be. It is an entirely different approach and focus than virtually any other synthesizer and I think it requires an open mind and willingness to approach things differently. Personally, I think think there are enough synths replicating vintage analog synths and welcome a instrument that offers something entirely different than anything available.

If you have a complex live setup, there is no doubt a workstation is going to serve you better. If you want an instrument that is uniquely expressive and can also cover many live setups, I don't think you can go wrong with the Jupiter. Also whatever shortcomings the Jupiter may have, it is fully capable of being used to create great live sounds and setups. I don't fault my Shigeru for being single minded and I can deal with Jupiter not being a workstation.

As for working with the Jupiter as a creative tool, I think you are way off base, however if it doesn't suit your needs, I can't tell you it does. I think the Jupiter is an amazing creative tool that enables you to put together ideas in real time that you could never do with another keyboard. The Kronos has incredible synths and some EPs to die for, but as far as offering quality sounds across the board, it simply doesn't, so the Jupiter makes a perfect match. The Kronos simply can't do what the Jupiter does, so I will work with what the Jupiter offers, which IMO, is quite alot.
_________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64

Chriskk · Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2011 Posts: 341

Why do synth players care so much about the complexity of a synth engine? The JP-80's VA engine is simple, but what matters is the end result. It sounds fabulous.

Ask world class guitarists. They would say a simple combo of a Les Paul and an old Marshall amp with only a few knobs gives a better tone than a high-tech modern guitar paired with all the digital wonder boxes.

SanderXpander · Platinum Member Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 2224

That's a really bad analogy. If you asked such a guitar player with his marshall amp and les paul guitar to get a good Nile Rodgers sound he couldn't do it, and you know it. It's not that the machine has to be complex for the sake of being complex, and obviously every body agrees it has to sound good. I have a few older synths, and they are in some respects "one-trick ponies" - a Micromoog, a JX10, a few others. That's fine with me, I bought them for that purpose. But a modern day VA is expected to be more versatile. Multiple filter models, oscillator sync, all these are tools to create the sounds we want. Most VAs have them, these days.

If you need a tremolo arm on your guitar and it can't be put there, you'll live, and the guitar sounds just as great, but you might still moan from time to time that you need a tremolo arm to get a specific effect.

RonF · Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:57 pm Post subject:

What the JP80 lacks in synthesis structure and parameters (and it does lack these things in certain areas as a matter of fact) it makes up for in other new and fresh ways that older synths, such as the JP8000, do not have. What is remarkable about the JP80 is its overall architecture, quality, expressiveness, and resources.

You might have more fundamental synthesis parameters on the JP8000....but you were limited to 8 voices, no after touch, only 2 limited LFO's, 2 oscillators per voice, and very limited effects. This is not to take away from the JP8000, or its features which the JP80 does not have. It was indeed a very cool synth. But, where the JP80 shines is in its ability to have such grand and extensive resources at its disposal. Such high polyphony, so many effects, so many slots to layer again and again and again, remarkable expressiveness with SuperNatural synth and acoustic side by side. Its truly like having 10 super-GAIA synths all going at once, if you want.

Even the GAIA in some ways beats the JP8000 just by its structure....granted it doesn't sound as good (raw oscillator power), or have the cool motion effects.....but just that one synth has pretty impressive specs with 64 voices, 3 osc per patch, 6 LFO's (3 dedicated to Mod wheel), 3 ADSR's, lots of effects with deep editing, etc. The end results you can get with GAIA are in many ways more enticing that the output of the JP8000 ever was from a certain perspective (if ONLY GAIA was a modeled VA rather than PCM).

Back to JP80....its GAIA times ten, plus amazing polyphony, remarkable effects (though the routing could be better!), and unreal expressiveness and sound quality. For a 2011 product...the era of iPad...its a touch screen approach to synthesis with some cool integrated hardware controls...which you may not enjoy as much as an old school control surface...but it works very well and is very contemporary.

All in all, as a package......its results overshadow its limitations compared to another synth that has osc sync, etc. In most cases, where you might use a parameter like osc sync on a synth with lesser resources to build a tone within its limited structure and resources.....here with JP80 you start to layer multiple tones to accomplish complex sounds that the lesser synth cannot create. Osc sync is a very basic sound...and ubiquitous. But what the JP80 can do with all its power, slots, resources, and sound quality, is create sounds that are anything but basic and ubiquitous. Its a fresh new sound, and a fresh approach to creating sound for a hardware synth.

You either "get" it or not. Its not the end all be all....its something fresh and new. What it CAN do is pretty remarkable. What it doesn't do......it just doesn't do......but I don't need another $3500 keyboard to give me a basic osc sync patch. I got that covered 50 times over.

JMHO of course......

Smile

_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Fantom G, GAIA, SPD-30, Juno 106, RE-201, MC808, RC50, MV8800, Kurz PC3, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, Arturia Origin, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld.

aron · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:52 am Post subject:

I've wanted something like motion control since I thought of it long ago. I was very excited when the SY35 had a limited form of it. I was amazed that Roland did put it in a synthesizer. I did like the Gaia as a fun synth when I played it, but the JP8000 is just.. way more fun.

I view the JP80 in a similar way as the Kronos - powerful, but not necessarily created for free form jamming with synth parameters. The Gaia and the JP8000 are much better at that. I love the arpeggiators too. Pretty fun.
_________________
Kronos, PC361

RonF · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:10 am Post subject:

100% agree with your statements.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Fantom G, GAIA, SPD-30, Juno 106, RE-201, MC808, RC50, MV8800, Kurz PC3, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, Arturia Origin, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld.