 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
dregsor
Junior Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 70
Location: Cincinnati
|
 Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| I see the problem. How many of you actually watched the video? You MUST wear shoes when playing a real acoustic piano or you lose polyphony. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Xenomorph
Senior Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 350
Location: U.S.A
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vstkeys wrote: | | IMO all vst and keyboard piano patchs today are missing the Woody sound of a real piano, I am not sure why. I have tried nearly everything that is out there on vst + my kronos and none got a woody timbre to it all sterile |
Hate to sound like an ass, and it's not my intention to attack you, but maybe it's missing the "woody timbre" because its not made of wood? By that I mean there are just some things that cannot be reproduced faithfully 100%, this may just be one of those nuances.
And saying the Kronos pianos are sterile is a bit on the harsh side don't you think? I played with one for 5 minutes and was blown away. I can't wait to get one in my studio!
_________________
Life is short, play a KORG!
Current: Pa5X, Nautilus
Past: M1, X5D, N364, Karma, X50, TR61, M50, micro-Korg, Triton Extreme, Pa3x, Roland Fantom 06, Akai mpc key61 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Kronos pianos are stereo, left and right channels use separate voices, so number of actual notes that you can play is half of polyphony spec number, also things like key release noises or pedal resonance require their own voices. |
I was actually already using the "converted spec". If going by traditional synth specs SGX-1 has 400 voices polyphony. But it supposedly translates to 100 real notes because of stereo and layering.
And my question remains; seeing as the piano has 88 keys, how do you go through 100 notes? If I rehit a note on a piano, even with sustain pedal, I don't hear it twice/double. The same should hold for the Kronos. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1548
Location: Hawaii
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | 100 dual-stereo notes (It corresponds to 400 voices in the maximum.) |
I wonder what a dual stereo note is? I need to check the polyphony counter.
_________________
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EXer
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Location: France
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SanderXpander wrote: | | And my question remains; seeing as the piano has 88 keys, how do you go through 100 notes? If I rehit a note on a piano, even with sustain pedal, I don't hear it twice/double. The same should hold for the Kronos. |
On a digital instrument when you hit again a note which is already sounding and when the polyphony limit is reached, the 'note stealing' algorithm has to cut an already sounding note, but the sounding note which is cut is not necessarily the note you hit again.
Many sample based tone generators just cut the notes on a 'first in first out' basis. You can experiment that easily: press the sustain pedal, hit a note, then hit another note, and keep on hitting that other note again and again. When the polyphony limit is reached, the 1st note you hit will end up being cut.
However Dan explained that the note stealing algorithm on the K is pretty sophisticated, maybe it has instructions like 'IF limit is reached AND IF last note hit is already sounding THEN cut *that* note ELSE cut oldest note'? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I know this. I just would assume that with an engine dedicated to faithful piano replication, they wouldn't let the same note be heard twice, let alone twenty times (hitting the same key twenty times). That would be a truly moronic implementation. Theoretically you could then run out of oscillators if you could just hit the same note over a hundred times within the decay time of the note. But I suppose it's just speculation as we don't really have insight in the technical part. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeroesque
Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 451
Location: SoCal
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bruce Lychee wrote: | | The Kronos doesn't even do sympathetic resonance |
SGX-1 Overview
...
True damper resonance, also chromatically
sampled, with multiple velocity layers
_________________
Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeroesque
Senior Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 451
Location: SoCal
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SanderXpander wrote: | | I know this. I just would assume that with an engine dedicated to faithful piano replication, they wouldn't let the same note be heard twice, let alone twenty times (hitting the same key twenty times). That would be a truly moronic implementation. Theoretically you could then run out of oscillators if you could just hit the same note over a hundred times within the decay time of the note. But I suppose it's just speculation as we don't really have insight in the technical part. |
I would guess that most modern sample-based digital pianos do allow a note to be played multiple times. I mean, what would you expect to happen if you held the sustain pedal, pounded a note hard, then hit it softly? Should the initial loud note be cut off? The SGX-1 looks like it allows at least three of the same note to ring out, based upon what I observe in the perf meters tab. It is probably much more complicated than that.
_________________
Kronos 61, Kronos2-88, Hammond B3, Baldwin SD-10 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
maphill
Full Member
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 217
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| EXer wrote: |
Add velocity cross fading and that may halve the polyphony once more...
I'm not surprised that 128 "notes" of a sample based engine are eaten up quickly when playing classical piano with a heavy use of the pedal... |
I don't believe there is velocity cross-fading, only velocity switching and gain adjustment, but I could be wrong.
Mark
_________________
Korg KRONOS 73, Trinity Pro, Monotron,
Roland FA-06 and Fantom 6, Roland TDK-15
Big Knob, Sonar (Previously, OASYS 76) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| EXer wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | And my question remains; seeing as the piano has 88 keys, how do you go through 100 notes? If I rehit a note on a piano, even with sustain pedal, I don't hear it twice/double. The same should hold for the Kronos. |
On a digital instrument when you hit again a note which is already sounding and when the polyphony limit is reached, the 'note stealing' algorithm has to cut an already sounding note, but the sounding note which is cut is not necessarily the note you hit again.
Many sample based tone generators just cut the notes on a 'first in first out' basis. You can experiment that easily: press the sustain pedal, hit a note, then hit another note, and keep on hitting that other note again and again. When the polyphony limit is reached, the 1st note you hit will end up being cut.
However Dan explained that the note stealing algorithm on the K is pretty sophisticated, maybe it has instructions like 'IF limit is reached AND IF last note hit is already sounding THEN cut *that* note ELSE cut oldest note'? |
Probably the volume of 'old' notes are also taken into account (I think I would do it if I would design the algorithm). It's better to cut off very soft notes than harder notes (and I mean real volume, not the velocity it's struck with initially).
_________________
Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
apex
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 2340
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danmusician
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 875
Location: Southern PA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| X-Trade wrote: | Thing is that your acoustic piano isn't really miced very well.
If you miced it in a similar professional recording environment to that which the Kronos samples were made, it might be an interesting comparison.
I think when it comes to acoustic sounds on electronic instruments like the Kronos and particularly other sample-based workstations, you have to consider the sounds that come out of it are almost finalised recording quality.
Meaning it's as if you've already been to the studio with the instrument in question. A comparison with a 'live' environment will always be very different. |
Good point. Years ago I was taking some kids on a tour of a recording studio in DC. I video taped the owner's presentation to the kids.
He played his 7ft Bosendorfer for them. The instrument did not disappoint. Later, he played a piano patch on his Kurzweil K250. I was surprised when I got home and listed to the videotape, that the K250 sounded better then the Bosendorfer. The reason: the samples on the K250 had been optimally mic'ed, while the piano had not. The sound translated from the studio monitor speakers to the condensor mic on the camcorder with a better quality than the actual piano did.
I think the piano is one of the most difficult instruments to record well in terms of mic placement. Digital pianos take that guess work out of the equation (assuming the original samples are well done.)
_________________
Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danmusician
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 875
Location: Southern PA
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| billysynth1 wrote: | The baldwin sounds miles better...I just picked up my Kronos 88 today, I wasnt that impressed with the pianos.
The balwin has more gutso to it, the kronos, particularly the high end, sounds very thin.
Also, i killed the polyphony on the Kronos in a few bars just playing rachmaninoff, and playing one of my improvs.
And another thing, playing a chord or note in the bass end and sustaining it does not hold that long, dies out too quickly.
lol
Billy |
I've spent quite a bit of time and money over the years seeking the "best" digital piano. I've owned keyboards, modules and software instruments from Korg, Yamaha, Kurzweil, Ensoniq, Alesis, MOTU and Garratan. I kinda got off that merry-go-round several years ago. But what I learned along the way was that everyone has their own idea what a digital piano should sound like.
What you hear as "thin," another person may hear as ”delicate." Another person may hear a timbre and pronounce it "sterile." I may hear it and call it "clean."
One of my favorite "pianos" to play was the 01/W pro. Far from the most "accurate" representation of an acoustic piano, I loved the way it responded to me. I could play more expressively on that instrument than some other "better" sounding DPs. Isn't that really what it's all about?
The Authorized Steinway app comes with a nice little book about Steinway pianos. At then end it says, "Now that you've tried the Virtual Steinway, we hope you'll come to a show room and try a real Steinway." Right! Cause the only reason I got the software was because I just wasn't sure I'd like the real thing! It had nothing to do with $300 vs $100,000!!!
My ultimate conclusion: I'd rather play a good digital piano over an average or mediocre acoustic piano any day. I don't miss sticky keys in humid weather. Slightly out of tune notes bother me far more than any perceived shortcomings in a sample. And if the piano needs to be mic'ed, give me digital, please. (Unless I'm playing a nice hall with a pro sound man and a Bosendorfer. Which is... NEVER!) 
PS: Billy, I'd probably feel differently if I was playing Rachmaninoff, Beethoven, Chopin or even Gershwin. But for my stuff, dps are just fine. 
_________________
Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
donjuancarlos
Full Member
Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 105
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's fascinating how even though the real grand piano was uneven, slightly out of tune and some of the notes rang too much, it was more interesting, musically, than the Kronos (Part of that is likely the arpeggio)
I think the Kronos pianos would sound better if you put a room reverb on them and played a little with the room dynamics. The Kronos piano samples you played all sounded like some variation of a piano (in a dry recording studio) played into a mic 2" away from the string then reverbed with a wet plate.
I can't wait to play with the reverbs on the pianos when I finally get my Kronos. I have been waiting so freaking long... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zeroesque wrote: | | Bruce Lychee wrote: | | The Kronos doesn't even do sympathetic resonance |
SGX-1 Overview
...
True damper resonance, also chromatically
sampled, with multiple velocity layers |
As I said, it doesn't do sympathetic resonance.
_________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
