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Kronos 88 and RH3 keyboard faulty
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vEddY
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

Nothing new here. Companies have been cutting corners the past 15 years in an effort to survive. Yes, I know, non korg fan boys, u don' t care about korg economics. Don't expect your keyboard to last 15-20 yrs. those days are gone.
If you haven' t noticed, the high end work station market is fading away. The sales are not there. More korg economics to not care about, non korg fan boys. I bet the market for gigging keyboardists is shrinking too.


That's absolutely not an acceptable policy, if it goes against product quality, which then equals to dissatisfied customers, months of waiting for a fix and not knowing what the fix is. It's absolutely ok if companies cut corners but don't screw up their customers. This time, they did, as their users have been waiting for months for a fix without a word of notice. Then, after getting a fix, they didn't announce anything about the reason why the fix was necessary and in what way they will fix it, not a simple PR release detailing the issue and conditions under which the problem will be fixed. Everything's a bit "shady", there's no open-minded communication with their customers. I don't see a single post detailing their repair policy, done the way it should've been done - a honest press release sent out so that people can be certain that their investment will be honored and with what terms - time period for possible future repairments, if necessary. This is the way the responsable company does business.

In case you failed to notice, I'm not against having a fix - I'm all for it, but available in a way that doesn't degrade one customer's investment in the same product for another. I think that fix should be available to everyone, so that every customer can be equal to another. By any standard, that should be a good thing.

GregC wrote:

You are lucky to have access to a $3000 state of the art workstation. Roland and Yamaha aren't doing it, they are much larger than korg. Ever wonder why ? They don' t want to take the risk , they are still milking the shrinking market with the 2001 motif or the fantom. If you think Roland or Yamaha is better, that's your ticket. Yes, their motifs can fall off the stage and survive but that is not a criteria for me.

I bet most buyers turn over their boards in 3-5 years. I am like that. So why engineer keyboards to last 20 years ? The 80's and 90's business mentality is pretty much gone. In almost all industries.

I think korg had some bad luck with the rh3. But they are taking care of it.
Sure, it took longer. They didn't expect it or plan for it. Sure , they didn't communicate about the fix fast enough. They had to get organized and get a fix in place on a global basis. That took tremendous man hours and a lot of extra money that was not in the budget. Yes, non korg fan boys, more korg economics you don' t care about. Well, there are business facts of life to be dealt with and some need to learn about them, or practice the virtue of patience when unplanned accidents happen.


You've gone astray from things we discussed and a couple of other things. Your sentence:

"You are lucky to have access to a $3000 state of the art workstation."

makes absolutely no sense, but it also speaks volume about the state of your mind. Roland and Yamaha have absolutely ZERO to do with this discussion. It's not people who bought it and can't use it who are lucky to be given a chance to spend money on a workstation that's been non-functional for months. It's KORG that's lucky that they get to get our money in the first place. And in accordance with that, they should take good care of it. Which they didn't do, on a number of occasions.

I don't have a problem with the fact that products last for 3-5 years at all. I would - as any sane person - of course, prefer if it weren't so, but that is an entirely different subject. Case in point - why am I able to load every single sound that I can come by from Kurzweil instruments in the past 15 years in my PC3K8? Because some companies have a different product development model. I'm not saying it's better or worse, it's different. Furthermore, I especially don't have a problem with the fact that sometimes companies screw up - that's completely acceptable. If they take full responsibility for that, in an open and honest way. Which is not what KORG did. And that I do have a problem with. The fact that there's even a discussion about that is ridiculus to begin with.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vEddY wrote:
GregC wrote:

Nothing new here. Companies have been cutting corners the past 15 years in an effort to survive. Yes, I know, non korg fan boys, u don' t care about korg economics. Don't expect your keyboard to last 15-20 yrs. those days are gone.
If you haven' t noticed, the high end work station market is fading away. The sales are not there. More korg economics to not care about, non korg fan boys. I bet the market for gigging keyboardists is shrinking too.


That's absolutely not an acceptable policy, if it goes against product quality, which then equals to dissatisfied customers, months of waiting for a fix and not knowing what the fix is. It's absolutely ok if companies cut corners but don't screw up their customers. This time, they did, as their users have been waiting for months for a fix without a word of notice. Then, after getting a fix, they didn't announce anything about the reason why the fix was necessary and in what way they will fix it, not a simple PR release detailing the issue and conditions under which the problem will be fixed. Everything's a bit "shady", there's no open-minded communication with their customers. I don't see a single post detailing their repair policy, done the way it should've been done - a honest press release sent out so that people can be certain that their investment will be honored and with what terms - time period for possible future repairments, if necessary. This is the way the responsable company does business.

In case you failed to notice, I'm not against having a fix - I'm all for it, but available in a way that doesn't degrade one customer's investment in the same product for another. I think that fix should be available to everyone, so that every customer can be equal to another. By any standard, that should be a good thing.

GregC wrote:

You are lucky to have access to a $3000 state of the art workstation. Roland and Yamaha aren't doing it, they are much larger than korg. Ever wonder why ? They don' t want to take the risk , they are still milking the shrinking market with the 2001 motif or the fantom. If you think Roland or Yamaha is better, that's your ticket. Yes, their motifs can fall off the stage and survive but that is not a criteria for me.

I bet most buyers turn over their boards in 3-5 years. I am like that. So why engineer keyboards to last 20 years ? The 80's and 90's business mentality is pretty much gone. In almost all industries.

I think korg had some bad luck with the rh3. But they are taking care of it.
Sure, it took longer. They didn't expect it or plan for it. Sure , they didn't communicate about the fix fast enough. They had to get organized and get a fix in place on a global basis. That took tremendous man hours and a lot of extra money that was not in the budget. Yes, non korg fan boys, more korg economics you don' t care about. Well, there are business facts of life to be dealt with and some need to learn about them, or practice the virtue of patience when unplanned accidents happen.


You've gone astray from things we discussed and a couple of other things. Your sentence:

"You are lucky to have access to a $3000 state of the art workstation."

makes absolutely no sense, but it also speaks volume about the state of your mind. Roland and Yamaha have absolutely ZERO to do with this discussion. It's not people who bought it and can't use it who are lucky to be given a chance to spend money on a workstation that's been non-functional for months. It's KORG that's lucky that they get to get our money in the first place. And in accordance with that, they should take good care of it. Which they didn't do, on a number of occasions.

I don't have a problem with the fact that products last for 3-5 years at all. I would - as any sane person - of course, prefer if it weren't so, but that is an entirely different subject. Case in point - why am I able to load every single sound that I can come by from Kurzweil instruments in the past 15 years in my PC3K8? Because some companies have a different product development model. I'm not saying it's better or worse, it's different. Furthermore, I especially don't have a problem with the fact that sometimes companies screw up - that's completely acceptable. If they take full responsibility for that, in an open and honest way. Which is not what KORG did. And that I do have a problem with. The fact that there's even a discussion about that is ridiculus to begin with.


Oh yes, Korg having a $3000 state of the art workstation , while Roland and Yamaha do not, says volumes to a reasonable person.

Those 2 companies are Korgs direct competition for pro keyboards. You know that and so do most folks. Kurz is definitely a force and a 3rd competitor. But where is their promised new workstation ?

you post like Korg carelessly made life miserable for its very loyal customers. They are not open and honest ? Who are you to judge ?

Take full responsibility ? According to you ? Who appointed you to define the terms ?

Korg already has taken responsibility. The defect has cost them a lot in repairs and in lost sales. Care to speculate on the math ? They have paid a significant price. Would you prefer to read their financial statements as proof ?

You are re-hashing points that have been made several months ago. That is history. It can be said that Kronos customers effected by the defect, with a new keybed plus the OS have moved on and feel better.
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vEddY
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

Oh yes, Korg having a $3000 state of the art workstation , while Roland and Yamaha do not, says volumes to a reasonable person.
Those 2 companies are Korgs direct competition for pro keyboards. You know that and so do most folks. Kurz is definitely a force and a 3rd competitor. But where is their promised new workstation ?
you post like Korg carelessly made life miserable for its very loyal customers. They are not open and honest ? Who are you to judge ?
Take full responsibility ? According to you ? Who appointed you to define the terms ?
Korg already has taken responsibility. The defect has cost them a lot in repairs and in lost sales. Care to speculate on the math ? They have paid a significant price. Would you prefer to read their financial statements as proof ?
You are re-hashing points that have been made several months ago. That is history. It can be said that Kronos customers effected by the defect, with a new keybed plus the OS have moved on and feel better.


They might be competitors, but this discussion has zero to do with them. In general - that was an excellent troll you posted. And you're not only taking my words out of context and misrepresenting them in a way that's completely opposite to what I actually said - you're doing it on purpose. But let's try to clarify once more - I never said that they carelessly made life miserable upfront, before Kronos was launched. That would really be sick. But what I am saying is that they definitely did not help when the problem was detected, and for months to come. And I am saying that their fix isn't completely fair to Kronos owners. If you have a problem with my view on the subject, that's your problem, but I'm sticking to my opinion. Also, FYI, your "rehashing" and "old" seems far removed from reality. This is happening right now. Strange that you didn't notice people posting on the fix in the past two weeks.

I also never said that I'm gonna make any rules. Read through my posts and you'll notice that I expressed my opinion, which I can do whether you like it or not. If not, again, entirely your problem.

As I previously stated, KORG's financial data isn't our business in any way. That was actually the point I made earlier. Nice of you to cut it out of context, however unsuccessful that might be.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vEddY wrote:
GregC wrote:

Oh yes, Korg having a $3000 state of the art workstation , while Roland and Yamaha do not, says volumes to a reasonable person.
Those 2 companies are Korgs direct competition for pro keyboards. You know that and so do most folks. Kurz is definitely a force and a 3rd competitor. But where is their promised new workstation ?
you post like Korg carelessly made life miserable for its very loyal customers. They are not open and honest ? Who are you to judge ?
Take full responsibility ? According to you ? Who appointed you to define the terms ?
Korg already has taken responsibility. The defect has cost them a lot in repairs and in lost sales. Care to speculate on the math ? They have paid a significant price. Would you prefer to read their financial statements as proof ?
You are re-hashing points that have been made several months ago. That is history. It can be said that Kronos customers effected by the defect, with a new keybed plus the OS have moved on and feel better.


They might be competitors, but this discussion has zero to do with them. In general - that was an excellent troll you posted. And you're not only taking my words out of context and misrepresenting them in a way that's completely opposite to what I actually said - you're doing it on purpose. But let's try to clarify once more - I never said that they carelessly made life miserable upfront, before Kronos was launched. That would really be sick. But what I am saying is that they definitely did not help when the problem was detected, and for months to come. And I am saying that their fix isn't completely fair to Kronos owners. If you have a problem with my view on the subject, that's your problem, but I'm sticking to my opinion. Also, FYI, your "rehashing" and "old" seems far removed from reality. This is happening right now. Strange that you didn't notice people posting on the fix in the past two weeks.

I also never said that I'm gonna make any rules. Read through my posts and you'll notice that I expressed my opinion, which I can do whether you like it or not. If not, again, entirely your problem.

As I previously stated, KORG's financial data isn't our business in any way. That was actually the point I made earlier. Nice of you to cut it out of context, however unsuccessful that might be.


words out of context ? Misrepresenting ? Lets review your words:

" Everything's a bit "shady", there's no open-minded communication with their customers."

"If they take full responsibility for that, in an open and honest way. Which is not what KORG did. "

Then, you take issue with my reference to Roland and Yamaha. Then you continue with a reference to Kurz:
"why am I able to load every single sound that I can come by from Kurzweil instruments in the past 15 years in my PC3K8? "

You say a lot, 99% of the points are a rehash also contained in this epic thread.

Why you are doing it is weird. Its clear who the troll is. Maybe you have an agenda.
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vEddY
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

words out of context ? Misrepresenting ? Lets review your words:
" Everything's a bit "shady", there's no open-minded communication with their customers." "If they take full responsibility for that, in an open and honest way. Which is not what KORG did. "

Then, you take issue with my reference to Roland and Yamaha. Then you continue with a reference to Kurz:
"why am I able to load every single sound that I can come by from Kurzweil instruments in the past 15 years in my PC3K8? "

You say a lot, 99% of the points are a rehash also contained in this epic thread.

Why you are doing it is weird. Its clear who the troll is. Maybe you have an agenda.

A blind person would see my Kurzweil reference as an example from what I said, for good or bad (as I wrote in my text, using a carefully chosen wording). If you need me to spell it out, here it is - there are various things that PC3K8 doesn't do well. In all honesty, even the most die-hard Kurzweil fans know it. For example, EvilDragon really likes Kurzweils. But even he has enough balls to say that PC3K8 is far from perfect. And I happen to agree with that. And I happen to think that there are sounds that are better on Nord Stage 2 then on PC3K8 or KRONOS, and vice versa. That's completely normal for me, though. Not for you, obviously.

And again, misrepresenting what I said. I took no issue whatsoever. It's the facts that bug you and what you think I said, not what I said. Which brings me to a conclusion - you're paranoid, man. You see things that just aren't there. And agenda can only be yours, since you're defending something that has absolutely nothing to do with you - you don't own KORG, you're not a KORG employee so your attachment to them is purely fanboy-based, which is the reason why you're lacking objectivity in this discussion. What I'm talking about is policy towards customers, nothing more, nothing less. I would've done the same thing if it was done by Yamaha, or Roland, or Kurzweil, or anyone else. And on this forum, I've publicly spoken about various things other companies did wrong. I seem to remember a pretty big fight with a person from Open Labs while he was still there. And about the fact that one of Muse's VP's tried to bribe me to write various things about their products.

To wrap this up, you couldn't see honesty if it hit you on the nose. I'll waste no more time on you.
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Last edited by vEddY on Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:00 am; edited 3 times in total
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vEddY wrote:
A blind person would see my Kurzweil reference as an example from what I said, for good or bad (as I wrote in my text, using a carefully chosen wording). If you need me to spell it out, here it is - there are various things that PC3K8 doesn't do well. In all honesty, even the most die-hard Kurzweil fans know it. For example, EvilDragon really likes Kurzweils. But even he has enough balls to say that PC3K8 is far from perfect.


Actually, the most die-hard Kurzweil fans behave no different than the most die-hard Korg fans, like we witness it here on this board every day. It's the truth.

Me acknowledging that PC3K8 is far from perfect has nothing to do with balls. It has a lot to do with common sense, on the other hand.

PC3K is not perfect, but it suits me MUCH better than Kronos, for various reasons we don't need to get into now. Kronos also isn't perfect, it has its share of letdowns from my perspective and let's leave it at that. No board is ever perfect.
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vEddY
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:

Actually, the most die-hard Kurzweil fans behave no different than the most die-hard Korg fans, like we witness it here on this board every day. It's the truth.
Me acknowledging that PC3K8 is far from perfect has nothing to do with balls. It has a lot to do with common sense, on the other hand.
PC3K is not perfect, but it suits me MUCH better than Kronos, for various reasons we don't need to get into now. Kronos also isn't perfect, it has its share of letdowns IMO and let's leave it at that. No board is ever perfect.

Agreed. What's worse, I really do love KORG stuff and probably everyone except GregC knows that. But - as I'm sure you'll learn in the future, buddy, it takes balls to really like/love something and objectively criticize it, without losing "the love".
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vEddY wrote:
GregC wrote:

words out of context ? Misrepresenting ? Lets review your words:
" Everything's a bit "shady", there's no open-minded communication with their customers." "If they take full responsibility for that, in an open and honest way. Which is not what KORG did. "

Then, you take issue with my reference to Roland and Yamaha. Then you continue with a reference to Kurz:
"why am I able to load every single sound that I can come by from Kurzweil instruments in the past 15 years in my PC3K8? "

You say a lot, 99% of the points are a rehash also contained in this epic thread.

Why you are doing it is weird. Its clear who the troll is. Maybe you have an agenda.

A blind person would see my Kurzweil reference as an example from what I said, for good or bad (as I wrote in my text, using a carefully chosen wording). If you need me to spell it out, here it is - there are various things that PC3K8 doesn't do well. In all honesty, even the most die-hard Kurzweil fans know it. For example, EvilDragon really likes Kurzweils. But even he has enough balls to say that PC3K8 is far from perfect.

And again, misrepresenting what I said. I took no issue whatsoever. It's the facts that bug you and what you think I said, not what I said. Which brings me to a conclusion - you're paranoid, man. You see things that just aren't there. And agenda can only be yours, since you're defending something that has absolutely nothing to do with you - you don't own KORG, you're not a KORG employee so your attachment to them is purely fanboy-based. What I'm talking about is policy, nothing more, nothing less. I would've done the same thing if it was done by Yamaha, or Roland. And on this forum, I've publicly spoken about various things other companies did wrong. I seem to remember a pretty big fight with a person from Open Labs while he was still there. And about the fact that one of Muse's VP's tried to bribe me to write various things about their products.

To wrap this up, you couldn't see honesty if it hit you on the nose. I'll waste no more time on you.


I recall you work in the business.

You have done nothing for your reputation with your weird accusations, poor choice of phrases and negative harping on an issue that is mostly history.

Its time for you to move on.
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Its time for you to move on.


And you too, mister.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
GregC wrote:
Its time for you to move on.


And you too, mister.


Its always nice to hear from the Kurzweil cult.

Both of them
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, aren't you a feisty one. I'm not in a cult, for your information. I'm just a tad bit more objective than you. Because guess what - I use both a Kurzweil and a Korg. So stop being a senseless prick.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vEddY wrote:
GregC wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
GregC wrote:
Its time for you to move on.


And you too, mister.


Its always nice to hear from the Kurzweil cult.

Both of them

Second one being me, I presume? If you only knew how stupid and far from the truth that statement is....

BTW, re: my reputation.. People that know my work know my stance on issues of objectivity and truth. And a lot of those are people from companies 100x or more the size of KORG, if I might add. Luckily for me, you're not one of them. Your offensive tone mixed with accusations that are just plain wrong and disconnection from the truth are slowly becoming legendary.


I thought you were going away. Looks like we have to endure your self promotion and defensiveness.

If you were that good, you would not have to resort to being negative.

Try being classy next time.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

I thought you were going away. Looks like we have to endure your self promotion and defensiveness. If you were that good, you would not have to resort to being negative. Try being classy next time.


Actually, I was, which is obviously beyond what you can comprehend, since you obviously have a problem when people have some background. Most people don't. It happens. And the way in which you distort the word "negative" trying to equal it to "objectively criticize" is really something for a specialist to look at.
That's what fanboyism does to you.

God forbid that someone has a different opinion to yours, right. Sticks and stones flying around, without even noticing your own negativity. Nice hypocrisy.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vEddY wrote:
GregC wrote:

I thought you were going away. Looks like we have to endure your self promotion and defensiveness. If you were that good, you would not have to resort to being negative. Try being classy next time.


Actually, I was, which is obviously beyond what you can comprehend. It happens. And the way in which you distort the word "negative" trying to equal it to "objectively criticize" is really something for a specialist to look at.
That's what fanboyism does to you.

God forbid that someone has a different opinion to yours, right. Sticks and stones flying around, without even noticing your own negativity. Nice hypocrisy.


Lets review your words:

" Everything's a bit "shady", there's no open-minded communication with their customers."

"If they take full responsibility for that, in an open and honest way. Which is not what KORG did. "

sounds negative to me. Keep digging yourself deeper.

Try being classy.
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vEddY
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

Lets review your words:
" Everything's a bit "shady", there's no open-minded communication with their customers."
"If they take full responsibility for that, in an open and honest way. Which is not what KORG did. "
sounds negative to me. Keep digging yourself deeper.
Try being classy.

Let's review yours.

Some of the negative and untruthful ones, spitting on people:

"You have done nothing for your reputation with your weird accusations, poor choice of phrases and negative harping on an issue that is mostly history.
Its always nice to hear from the Kurzweil cult.
If you were that good, you would not have to resort to being negative.
Why you are doing it is weird. Its clear who the troll is. Maybe you have an agenda."

Even the positive ones are just plain chiming on the tubular fanboy bell disconnected from reality of customers.
"Nothing new here. Companies have been cutting corners the past 15 years in an effort to survive. Yes, I know, non korg fan boys, u don' t care about korg economics. Don't expect your keyboard to last 15-20 yrs. those days are gone.
You are lucky to have access to a $3000 state of the art workstation."

What I said is true. What you said are just plain insults. Either to specific people, or for people that suffered because of the keybed issue. Sorry if you can't see the difference.

Also, here's a short collection of quotes from other topics, from you, just to see how far your hypocrisy goes:

- nothing about any editor in sight so far at Namm (this is REALLY becoming VERY annoying).
- I woudn't be surprised, if it was already hard for Rich, to be allowed to post at least this minimal, and in fact not at all satisafactory, statement, leaving too many questions unanswered
- Since this defect is publicized/known for a few months, any company, Korg included, should know where there defective boards are and should not leave them on the retail market place.
- Since it has been a few months, I would find it ludicrous that any company is still waiting around , to see if customers will discover and complain they have a defective product.

So, you're allowed to be negative=objectively criticize something (your equation, not mine), and you're allowed to think that their handling of the problem is in fact not at all satisfactory, leaving too many questions unanswered, but I am not allowed to say the very same thing, after seeing documented cases of KORG distributors (in my opinion - having the nerve to) ask for any customer's confirmation that the keybed is actually bad?

Very zen of you.

On that note, EOD as far as I'm concerned.
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