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aribo61
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Posts: 75
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 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| NavidSyed wrote: | a bubble wrap? I personally think it would be a bad idea  |
ok, that seems to be the name of this protective packaging material...
I just needed a material which can decouple the vibrations from the chassis and at the same time fill the gap between fan and chassis.
Bubble wrap has those features, so I used it for a test.
If it works, I can find a better solution...the test simply should prove my air guiding theory.
| NavidSyed wrote: | and how did you connect the fan to this new location?  |
What do you mean by "connect"?
Electrically it's connected to the power connector of the motherboard (two of the open pins give a difference of 7V).
Mechanically the fan is simply pressed into the "tunnel" between PSU and back by the bubble wrap.
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Korg: Kronos 61, M3, Wavedrum, Kaossilator Pro, Nano*,
also: Yamaha S90es, Alesis Micron, Line6 Variax (guitar), Line6 Pod X3 Live, Launchpad, BCR2000, MPD18, FCB1010 |
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panrixx
Senior Member
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 448
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall, UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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I fully understand this is only a test material. However, personally I would be a bit concerned about this thin plastic melting. Do you know at what temperature that would occur?
Large diameter hot water pipe insulation might work as an alternative. It would have to be snug around the fan itself but cable ties could be used to acheive that. Just a thought.
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Rhodes 73 Mk1; Kronos 88; Synthex; Electribe EMX-1; Motif XS Rack; Yamaha DX7IIFD; Yamaha MM8; Roland Alpha Juno-2; Roland JV-2080; Tascam FW-1884. |
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madbeatzyo111
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Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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Wow this is starting to get very sophisticated, what with all the hydrodynamic wave-guided airflow quantum bubble wrap tunneling...ok maybe not so much the quantum part 
Seriously though, I think directing the airflow is an excellent idea! But I see some issues with trying to do it with tubing--namely there not being enough space inside. Instead I would suggest using baffles (think ailerons on an airplane wing) to guide the airflow where you want it, and reduce airflow to areas you don't need it by stuffing with glass wool or something similar. |
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maphill
Full Member
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 217
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 60mm x 10mm fan coming, which I will promptly gut, and use as a 10mm spacer (I couldn't find a dedicated spacer, but the fan was only $2.50).
I'll then try mounting the fan on the spacer, and then flexible mount it to the standard location.
Spacers are supposed to let fans be quieter. We'll see.
Mark
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Korg KRONOS 73, Trinity Pro, Monotron,
Roland FA-06 and Fantom 6, Roland TDK-15
Big Knob, Sonar (Previously, OASYS 76) |
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Thoraldus
Platinum Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 2061
Location: Rocky Mountains - SE IDaho
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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If you can feel vibration on the fan or the fan mount while it is running then you will probably hear it in a quiet room. One approach is to acoustically decouple the fan from the mount using something like 1/4" x 1/2" Norseal® V730 Acoustical Sealant Tape. This foam tape has adhesive on both sides. I'd add a some 'safety' zip ties for mechanical security but not cinch them down tight. YMMV.
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”It’s easy to play any musical instrument: all you have to do is touch the right key at the right time and the instrument will play itself.”
Johann Sebastian Bach
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Korg Kronos2, Casio MZ-X500, PA600, AKAI MPD32, M-Audio Oxygen 25, ZOOM H6, Cakewalk Sonar |
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panrixx
Senior Member
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 448
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall, UK
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aribo61
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| panrixx wrote: | | I notice the width is 25mm. Is that the correct width and will the rubber mounts accomodate it? |
the width of the original fan is 25mm.
If you mount it in original position you have ca. 7cm room.
The rubber mounts are each pulled through only one hole, right?
So the width of the fan shouldn't play a role here.
Please look at maphills photos, one of them shows the rubber mount.
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Korg: Kronos 61, M3, Wavedrum, Kaossilator Pro, Nano*,
also: Yamaha S90es, Alesis Micron, Line6 Variax (guitar), Line6 Pod X3 Live, Launchpad, BCR2000, MPD18, FCB1010 |
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aribo61
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Thoraldus wrote: | | If you can feel vibration on the fan or the fan mount while it is running then you will probably hear it in a quiet room. One approach is to acoustically decouple the fan from the mount using something like 1/4" x 1/2" Norseal® V730 Acoustical Sealant Tape. This foam tape has adhesive on both sides. I'd add a some 'safety' zip ties for mechanical security but not cinch them down tight. YMMV. |
this sounds nice...thanks
my only concern is, that I would prefer to be able to remove all traces residue-free, to restore my Kronos to original state in case of warranty related problems. I therefore would not like to glue it to the chassis in any way. But the outer layer could also be another material.
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Korg: Kronos 61, M3, Wavedrum, Kaossilator Pro, Nano*,
also: Yamaha S90es, Alesis Micron, Line6 Variax (guitar), Line6 Pod X3 Live, Launchpad, BCR2000, MPD18, FCB1010 |
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aribo61
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| panrixx wrote: | | personally I would be a bit concerned about this thin plastic melting. Do you know at what temperature that would occur? |
the temperatures are not that high at that place. The only real hot spot is the heat spreader of the motherboard.
| panrixx wrote: | | Large diameter hot water pipe insulation might work as an alternative. It would have to be snug around the fan itself but cable ties could be used to acheive that. Just a thought. |
yes, I thought of such a material, too. My current simple construction could be done with many materials. I have a bunch of different packaging materials here to try.
_________________
Korg: Kronos 61, M3, Wavedrum, Kaossilator Pro, Nano*,
also: Yamaha S90es, Alesis Micron, Line6 Variax (guitar), Line6 Pod X3 Live, Launchpad, BCR2000, MPD18, FCB1010 |
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panrixx
Senior Member
Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 448
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall, UK
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aribo61
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| madbeatzyo111 wrote: | | Wow this is starting to get very sophisticated, what with all the hydrodynamic wave-guided airflow quantum bubble wrap tunneling...ok maybe not so much the quantum part |
well, I'm currently on the way to construct the formula
| madbeatzyo111 wrote: | | I see some issues with trying to do it with tubing--namely there not being enough space inside. Instead I would suggest using baffles (think ailerons on an airplane wing) to guide the airflow where you want it, and reduce airflow to areas you don't need it by stuffing with glass wool or something similar. |
I think baffles wouldn't work, because the air flow isn't that speedy.
Generally it would be ideal to separate the whole chassis into two halfs (rear and front side), with connections only at the ends (motherboard and the opposite end). The hot air should be directly transfered to the cool end and the cooled air floating back the other way.
There shouldn't be a leak, between both ways, because the hot air could float back before cooled.
You would ideally have to install a long wall from the left to the right with no leak. This is difficult because of all those electronic parts.
Instead, a pipe from the motherboard to the other end perfectly separates the forward and backward flow without any possibility for a short circuit.
However as you said, the space for the pipe is limited.
I think a pipe with a diameter equal to the fan should be enough, so 60x60 (inner dimensions) should be good.
The main problem here is to get around the SSD mount. The straight way is not possible.
However, using a pipe would also allow to take a way between SSD and keyboard.
_________________
Korg: Kronos 61, M3, Wavedrum, Kaossilator Pro, Nano*,
also: Yamaha S90es, Alesis Micron, Line6 Variax (guitar), Line6 Pod X3 Live, Launchpad, BCR2000, MPD18, FCB1010 |
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aribo61
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Posts: 75
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:57 am Post subject: |
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I think, it depends on how you mount it.
If you use screws through fan, dampener and metal sheet and fix them on both sides, the fan and the metal sheet are strictly bound together and the dampener doesn't work much.
Generally you need two connections: The fan should be fixed to the damping element and the damping element should be fixed to the metal sheet / chassis.
A screw through all of them makes a direct connection between the two, which is an acoustical short circuit (wow, this word *is* frequently used).
The damping element should always be mounted in a way that it can absorb the vibrational energy, that is, it should be deformed by the vibration.
Additionally, the direction of the vibration is interesting.
A fan probably doesn't swing along it's axis. The vibration should be mainly generated by any imbalance of the rotor. So it swings radial. If the connecting part (e.g. a cable tie) can freely swing in radial direction, it doesn't transfer the vibration. The rubber mounts will instead transfer a certain part of the vibration, because they are more stiff in radial direction. They are also very short, which makes them even more stiff.
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Korg: Kronos 61, M3, Wavedrum, Kaossilator Pro, Nano*,
also: Yamaha S90es, Alesis Micron, Line6 Variax (guitar), Line6 Pod X3 Live, Launchpad, BCR2000, MPD18, FCB1010 |
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maphill
Full Member
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 217
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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New data:
I tried using a 10mm spacer last night. Unfortunately, the rubber mounts would not work with it, so I used zip ties to hold the fan to the spacer to the factory mounting point.
Even these zip ties were too rigid of a mount, and the dreaded low frequency hum returned.
I think if the rubber mounts were used with the stock fan, it would make a noticeable difference, but unfortunately, the case design won't work with the rubber mounts I have, which require "tabs" instead of a continuous "tunnel" for the screw.
I suppose I could use my (costly) Acoustifan, and gut it, mount is as a spacer on the rubber mounts, then zip tie the stock fan to the Acoustifan. That would be an expensive spacer/mount. I need to think about it more.
Mark
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Korg KRONOS 73, Trinity Pro, Monotron,
Roland FA-06 and Fantom 6, Roland TDK-15
Big Knob, Sonar (Previously, OASYS 76) |
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popmann
Senior Member
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 350
Location: Nashville
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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I picked up my K88 today. My studio is STUPID quiet. After reading here, I was SURE I was going to have to rip this guy open, void the warranty, and replace the fan. I SO anal about keeping the ambient noise level down in here. I can here the sound of the skin on teh bottoms of my feet when I walk across the floor...if a CFL develops aslight whine--OUT--ANNOYING...KSP8--gutted as soon as I fired it up. Heard it, shut it down, ripped it open and spec'd a new fan. I can hear the PC, but it's only on to sequence strings. While I spec'd that and got it really quiet--with three drives...handful of fans--you CAN hear it in use. But, like I said-that was a compromise because I don't record to it, so it's only occassionally on.
I would not have even known there was a fan IN it...if I didn't listen for it. Barely audible. I don't know...unless this goes bad or something...I'm thinking it's NOT a global issue. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| popmann wrote: | I picked up my K88 today. My studio is STUPID quiet. After reading here, I was SURE I was going to have to rip this guy open, void the warranty, and replace the fan. I SO anal about keeping the ambient noise level down in here. I can here the sound of the skin on teh bottoms of my feet when I walk across the floor...if a CFL develops aslight whine--OUT--ANNOYING...KSP8--gutted as soon as I fired it up. Heard it, shut it down, ripped it open and spec'd a new fan. I can hear the PC, but it's only on to sequence strings. While I spec'd that and got it really quiet--with three drives...handful of fans--you CAN hear it in use. But, like I said-that was a compromise because I don't record to it, so it's only occassionally on.
I would not have even known there was a fan IN it...if I didn't listen for it. Barely audible. I don't know...unless this goes bad or something...I'm thinking it's NOT a global issue. |
Only a small % of owners are complaining about the fan noise. That group is posting back and forth looking for a home grown solution to what they hear.
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