 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
philamelian
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 9
|
 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Ok checked that and understand, now everything sounds more logical about that parameter. Will try soon thanks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
dacko
Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Have you solved distorsion output problem?
It seems to me that i have same issue, but i think it just started recently, and its very anoying.
I am almost 100% sure, that distorsion wasnt there a few months ago.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
philamelian
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dacko,
I have solved the problem. But still there are some questions in my mind.
My distortion problem was happening especially when I was using the D4 note. I have checked the level of D4 from the level meter inside kronos. its around 5db different from C4 and E4 for example. So that might be an issue related to the headroom.
Maybe this difference made the sound go over the headroom level on some devices and is ok with some other devices which has more headroom. I still have problem with some notes in three headphones I use but dont have any problem with my reference monitors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: PARAMETER GUIDE |
|
|
| Product Reviewer wrote: | | HardSync wrote: | | OK, one more thing to check then before calling Korg's service dept. Check the "Internal Headroom" parameter in Global Mode - Basic. (pg 756 of the parameter guide.) |
This answer was posted over a week ago. The section on Internal Headroom is in the Parameter Guide, not the Operator's Manual. It starts on the bottom right corner of page 756 and continues on page 757. Reduce the setting to a lower value to increase the D/A overload margin.
http://korg.com/ReadMoreSupport.aspx?dld=4707 |
The reference to the manuals is accurate - thank you! - but the interpretation is a misunderstanding.
This setting does not affect the D/A headroom. Instead, it controls the clip level on the internal busses.
Clipping = distortion. So, whether the clipping happens internally (due to this parameter, or to the few effects algorithms or other functions which clip) or at the D/A, the solution is to turn down the level.
I would recommend the default setting of +48 for all users, for the reasons (and with the caveats) which I described in the manual, as below.
As with any complex audio system, there are a number of places in the KRONOS where clipping can occur, and also a number of places where gain can be controlled. If the term "gain-staging" is unfamiliar, an excursion via Google may be helpful:
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=gain-staging&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
* * *
Internal Headroom [Standard, +12dB, +24dB, +36dB, +48dB]
KRONOS uses 32‐bit floating point processing, resulting in an outstanding internal dynamic range of about 1,500dB. This means that internal signals can get both very loud and very soft without any noticeable decrease in audio quality. For instance, you don’t need to worry about turning down the oscillator level before entering a highly resonant filter, or be too concerned about maximizing every gain stage.
Audio input and output, on the other hand, uses industry‐standard 24‐bit fixed‐point A/D and D/A converters. As with all such converters, these have a theoretical maximum dynamic range of 144dB, and the loudest level they can produce is referred to as 0dBfs. If they try to produce a louder signal, they will clip at 0dBfs (and sound bad!).
The Internal Headroom parameter helps to control the way in which the internal 1,500dB dynamic range interacts with the audio I/O’s theoretical 144dB dynamic range.
To prevent internal signal levels from becoming so high that they completely saturate the D/A converters, the system intentionally limits the maximum signal level at the inputs to IFX1–12, MFX1/2, and TFX1/2.
Internal Headroom sets the volume level at which this limiting happens, relative to the D/A’s maximum level of 0dBfs.
When this is set to Standard, signals in the FX Busses are limited to the clip point of the D/As. To avoid internal clipping, you can turn down the output of the voice (using EQ Input Trim, for instance), or turn down the inputs or outputs of individual effects.
When Internal Headroom is set to +12dB, +24dB, +36dB, or +48dB, the FX Bus signals are allowed to be higher than the maximum D/A levels. This means that there is less chance of clipping internally, so that you don’t need to be as concerned about gain‐staging between individual effects. However, you still need to make sure that the signal level is 0dBfs or below before reaching the final outputs.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dacko
Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
That is all OK, what Dan says, but... I get distortion somewhere in analog part of the Kronos.
And it's hearable as analog distortion, not digital clipping. Like when old hifi amp is going to die. Trust me, i know that sound, it is not digital clipping.  Internal digital clipping would be hearable always, even if volume knob is at low levels.
When i turn the volume knob, at 50% and more, it starts... And I can hear it on all outputs, headphones, separate outputs 1,2,3,4, but NOT on USB output!
I often put mastering limiter as total fx, and lower the threshold a little bit, to get more compressed and louder sound. And even if I look at that mastering limiter meters, I'm not near 0db (digitally)... even then, if volume knob is higher than 50%, i get distortion.
And another thing... that just started recently, last week or something like that. I tried updating to 1.5, yesterday, but no luck. It didn't help. (i was on 1.0.4)
So only conclusion to me, is that analog amp or whatever is dying. Is there any solution for this? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| If it happens with factory programs and settings fairly often, I would say something is wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dacko
Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yes, it happens with unmodified factory patch of Kronos German Grand, for example, and also all others... no matter what sound engine is used. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dacko wrote: | That is all OK, what Dan says, but... I get distortion somewhere in analog part of the Kronos.
And it's hearable as analog distortion, not digital clipping. Like when old hifi amp is going to die. Trust me, i know that sound, it is not digital clipping. Internal digital clipping would be hearable always, even if volume knob is at low levels.
When i turn the volume knob, at 50% and more, it starts... And I can hear it on all outputs, headphones, separate outputs 1,2,3,4, but NOT on USB output!
I often put mastering limiter as total fx, and lower the threshold a little bit, to get more compressed and louder sound. And even if I look at that mastering limiter meters, I'm not near 0db (digitally)... even then, if volume knob is higher than 50%, i get distortion.
And another thing... that just started recently, last week or something like that. I tried updating to 1.5, yesterday, but no luck. It didn't help. (i was on 1.0.4)
So only conclusion to me, is that analog amp or whatever is dying. Is there any solution for this? |
I'm sorry that you're experiencing difficulties. It sounds to me like it would be good for you to talk with the support department of your Korg Distributor. They should be happy to help! Please see the contact information in my signature.
Best regards,
Dan
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
uhura
Junior Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 88
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dacko wrote: | | Yes, it happens with unmodified factory patch of Kronos German Grand, for example, and also all others... no matter what sound engine is used. |
Dacko, did you solve it? I have the same problem since yesterday, i cannot turn the volume knob beyond 12 o'clock without getting distortion even on the factory patches (on headphone and speakers). Only special thing i remember is that i turned the Kronos off while booting, but i got no error message afterwards. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dacko
Joined: 26 Aug 2011
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
No I didn't fix it. I play at low volumes. 
I didn't call Korg distributor in my country, as Dan told me, because it is a waste of time. They will take my keyboard for a too long time, and i need it, as it's my only synth now. Of course, they will never get me a new one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dniss
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: Pale blue dot
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I had problem with distorsion, once, using any EP.
The problem was that the velocity curve I had changed from default 4.
Just in case it could solve your prblm. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Misuse of setlist EQ is another known culprit, though probably not in this particular case. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
discocubsit
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 4
|
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: Audible Clipping on audio outputs |
|
|
I have had this same issue since day 1 and its extremely frustrating.
I don't think there is anything wrong with a previous poster pointing out that another brand of keyboard doesnt have the issue...
It seems a somewhat basic shortcoming.
Factory presets which distort at normal playing levels, even with the volume only turned up halfway.
These issues which keep mounting up really take the piss on such an expensive instrument!
We have to lower the output of the Kronos and then introduce gain inthe next device (a Neve EQ normally so at least its clean, but still not ideal, raising the noise floor unnecessarily...especially after the somewhat condescending suggestion that the issue is caused by poor gain-staging on our part (!).
I know about gain staging, thanks very much and I know that having only 50% usable range on an audio pot is down to a poor design choice or bad implementation! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
|
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| If as you say it happens with factory presets and you are 100% it's not due to any accidental settings you may have made, I would say your Kronos is broken and you should take it in for service. It's definitely not normal behavior. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
discocubsit
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 4
|
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi,
Its audible on almost all factory presets when playing chords (ie implied higher volumes).
I work round it in my own presets by lowering the final output level and - as was suggested - managing gain structure throughout the instrument.
But its poor that I have to go through this.
I now have only a single large controller (Kronos) and so being without it whilst Korg investigate for an indeterminate amount of time sounds painful.
Plus I'm too wedded to the sound of the thing to give it up...
Maybe when I next go on holiday I can get it checked out...
From the sounds of things, I'm not alone in suffering from this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
