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Help needed with Focusrite interface
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Pepperpotty
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Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 1308
Location: Suffolk, UK

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so I've just plugged my keyboard in to the front of the interface (1 and 2) and turned the gain on the interface up to 9 (out of 10).

The volume on the mix control panel is up as high as it will go and the keyboard volume is set to a normal playing level.

When I play, the meter on the scarlett mix control goes up about half way.

There is an option on the mix control to select either line or instrument. If I change the setting to instrument the volume goes way up and I can get decent recording levels with the gain set to 5 or 6. So that's much better.

However, this option of line or instrument only applies to the front inputs and not to the back. If there is no gain option and no option to select line or instrument for the back inputs then what is the point in having these inputs at all?
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Current gear: Korg Kronos 61, Voicelive 2, Shure SM58, Alesis M1 Active 520, Focusrite Scarlett 18i6
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synthjoe
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Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 1011

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepperpotty wrote:
If there is no gain option and no option to select line or instrument for the back inputs then what is the point in having these inputs at all?

They are for line level inputs, just like your PA800 or Voicelive 2, or a mixer, for example. Since line level is pretty standard, often no controls are given to the user for such interface inputs. If you have a mixer with some sort of an output level meter, you can troubleshoot easier to see whether the Scarlett is faulty.

With no mixer in the chain, output level controls (knob, fader) should be at about 80% or above of the full travel on both of your devices (PA800, VL2) - that is the normal line out level. Whether it is a 'normal playing level' through the PA you're using, that's another matter, but to achieve a proper line out level, the controls on your keyboard and FX processor should be turned almost fully up. When set up like that, a comfortable performance level (so a reasonably loud song, strong signal) should make the Scarlett's corresponding (ch. 3-4 or 5-6) green LED going more or less solid on. If such is not the case, then you have either faulty cables (you might want to try balanced cables for higher signal levels!), or the Scarlett has some problems (or maybe the output of your device, but with two devices behaving the same way the likelihood for this to be the problem is low).

Using a mixer with an output level indicator (a professional one with +4 dBu operating level, not a keyboard or consumer mixer with -10 dBV operating level), feed any signal into it and set the output controls to achieve an output level around -12 dB. This signal level should make the green LED (channel indicator on the Scarlett) flicker. If it is not lighting up at all, then raise the output level of your mixer and take a note of the level where the Scarlett's LED starts to indicate a signal.

At the highest output volume control setting both of your devices should be capable of comfortably overdrive the Scarlett's line input (the corresponding input's red LED should come on), so if such is not the case then something is going wrong...
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Pepperpotty
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Joined: 31 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're saying I should have the volume on my keyboard up to 80%? That's just not possible for me. Yes I can mute my keyboards speakers but the sound will then come out of my monitors and they're not located in a position for that to work in a recording situation. This interface is the thorn in my side. I'd expect to see it on eBay very soon.
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Current gear: Korg Kronos 61, Voicelive 2, Shure SM58, Alesis M1 Active 520, Focusrite Scarlett 18i6
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xmlguy
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Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 3605

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepperpotty wrote:
You're saying I should have the volume on my keyboard up to 80%? That's just not possible for me. Yes I can mute my keyboards speakers but the sound will then come out of my monitors and they're not located in a position for that to work in a recording situation. This interface is the thorn in my side. I'd expect to see it on eBay very soon.


At this point, I haven't actually seen any evidence that there is really any problem with the interface itself. I know that might sound remarkable, given all the difficulties you've had, but there's a rather large chance that the problems you've experienced with using the interface are not in any way caused by the hardware or software provided by the manufacturer. Unfortunately, when rogue software behaves badly, it can cause problems that make innocent software and hardware appear to be at fault. For example, a bad driver for one audio device can cause another audio device to stop working. It's like how one careless neighbor can toss a cigarette into a trash bin, and burn down the rest of the block. Before everyone starts blaming everyone else for the damage, a very careful investigation is needed to collect evidence.

You should not have to set inputs 1 and 2 to mic level in order to get a strong signal from your PA800. I believe that the problem must be that the output of the PA800 is not actually at line levels based on how you have set the volume. You need to examine all of the points in the PA800 where you can control the signal level. If the built-in speakers are too loud when setting the line output levels high, then this may be an inconvenient problem with the PA800, but it certainly is NOT the fault of the audio interface. A workaround may be to use headphones with a cable long enough to reach the audio interface, because the Software mixer lets you control the headphone monitoring level of any input.

The audio interface has only a limited ability to boost a signal that's far below what it should be. But you really do NOT want to boost the signal at all with the audio interface because any time that you amplify the signal you also amplify the noise and distortion as an unavoidable side effect. You can get more information about setting levels by searching for audio gain staging. The basic idea is that you want to start with a nice, hot signal, and then maintain that level throughout the whole signal path without boosting or cutting it all the way until it hits the channel fader in the PA mixer/DAW software. The channel fader is the only point at which the signal should be cut in order to balance the final mix.

One of the worst ways to make a clean signal filthy with noise is to start with a low signal, and then try to boost it as much as possible in each step of the signal path before it hits the channel fader. Amplifiers/preamps are generally very clean when the gain of the output matches the level of the input (0 dB gain). They are very dirty when boosting a low input signal to a high output level. So I would recommend that you turn off the PA800 speakers and then set the volume to 80%, as synthjoe suggested, and then increase or decrease the audio level on the PA800 until you get a 0dB LED reading on Input 1 when set to line level and a gain level of 0dB. Listen with headphones attached to the audio i/o box to see if the sound is clean and sweet, free of distortion and extra noise. Then, and only then, should you try to see what the level looks like in the DAW software. It will probably look perfectly good, showing a 0dB level, if ya follow these steps.
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synthjoe
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Joined: 21 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xmlguy wrote:
But you really do NOT want to boost the signal at all with the audio interface because any time that you amplify the signal you also amplify the noise and distortion as an unavoidable side effect. You can get more information about setting levels by searching for audio gain staging. The basic idea is that you want to start with a nice, hot signal, and then maintain that level throughout the whole signal path without boosting or cutting it all the way until it hits the channel fader in the PA mixer/DAW software. The channel fader is the only point at which the signal should be cut in order to balance the final mix.

Exactly as xmlguy writes. I'd add only one thing to it: just like you want to do the volume cut in the last stage - e.g. power amplifier volume control - you'd want to do the boosting (if necessary) as early as possible in the chain. Boosting at the beginning ensures that you're not going to amplify the noise from the whole chain by raising levels at the end, while cutting at the end makes sure you cut the noise from the whole chain as well, when reducing the signal.

If you need more assistance maybe you could draw and post a quick wiring diagram of your setup and we might be able to work it out for you how to best hook it up to achieve what you want with no bother and additional cost, if feasible at all.

P.S.: besides switching off the speakers on the PA800, you could turn down volume controls on your monitors, perhaps - but with the proper wiring of your setup it should not be necessary, hence I suggest you to give us more information. It would be good to know what inputs (microphones, instruments, etc.) you're using, how they are connected, for what and when you are using the Scarlett and what is used for monitoring (speakers, headphones, etc.) in what situations. Do you have a mixer in your setup?
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Darmin De'flern
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Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 221
Location: uk/malaysia

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepperpotty wrote:
Ok, so I've just plugged my keyboard in to the front of the interface (1 and 2) and turned the gain on the interface up to 9 (out of 10).

The volume on the mix control panel is up as high as it will go and the keyboard volume is set to a normal playing level.

When I play, the meter on the scarlett mix control goes up about half way.

There is an option on the mix control to select either line or instrument. If I change the setting to instrument the volume goes way up and I can get decent recording levels with the gain set to 5 or 6. So that's much better.

However, this option of line or instrument only applies to the front inputs and not to the back. If there is no gain option and no option to select line or instrument for the back inputs then what is the point in having these inputs at all?


I use keyboard through the front as it gives you feedback on to much gain etc. As regards to putting up your volume on kyeboard im not sure how yours works but I can mute my speakers on my keyboard by putting in a headphone not sure if this works for your keyboard.

I havent used any other the other inputs yet but in Mix control there are volume settings for all inputs as far as I can see you can boost the gain of any of the inputs through software by turing the volume up for those inputs?
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Rolang VA7, Roland G-70 Ver3, quad core dell lappi with 6gb mem, DAW = Reaper, Amplitube 2,3. Scarlett Fockesrite 18-6, Mackie 1604 mixer, Washburn status 1000 headless bass, Roland 2.1 Monitors, Sunheizer Mic & Monitor headphones, Korg Kronos 88.
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Darmin De'flern
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Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 221
Location: uk/malaysia

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I have my Korg Kronos I have all three of my keyboards going in to my mixer and from mixer in to the two main inputs on the Scarlett interface. All volumes are on max on keyboards and gain on mixer on zero. Seems to be working well so far.
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Rolang VA7, Roland G-70 Ver3, quad core dell lappi with 6gb mem, DAW = Reaper, Amplitube 2,3. Scarlett Fockesrite 18-6, Mackie 1604 mixer, Washburn status 1000 headless bass, Roland 2.1 Monitors, Sunheizer Mic & Monitor headphones, Korg Kronos 88.
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