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roblof
Full Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 102
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 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:54 am Post subject: |
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So modifying the init-script to enable ssh or telnet is perhaps the quick and dirty solution?
What services are setup/enabled by default? |
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mathieumaes
Senior Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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When will the custom firmware be release ? 
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Old gig setup: Yamaha S90, Roland Fantom XR, Hammond XM-1, M-Audio Axiom 61
2011 gig setup: Korg Kronos 88 |
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Shakil
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 1083
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Did the Editor lose its way? |
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| SeedyLee wrote: | | Shakil wrote: | | SeedyLee wrote: |
Did Korg originally intend to deploy something more bespoke, and after experiencing difficulties, engaged SoundQuest to build something using Sysex? |
Do you think there is another way of communicating directly with a synth than Sysex? You sound like it's only SoundQuest that uses sysex. |
Of course there are other ways of communicating with a hardware synth, if you're not constrained to using MIDI. This is the whole point. The Kronos has the ability to do ethernet over usb for starters... |
What are the other ways? Sysex is the protocol, not medium. Even if you do ethernet over usb, you still have to send Sysex.
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Roland Fantom-G6 ARX1, Korg M3-m exb-Radias, Korg Z1-18v, Roland MC-808, Roland MC-909, Korg microKontrol. |
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SeedyLee
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Did the Editor lose its way? |
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| Shakil wrote: |
What are the other ways? Sysex is the protocol, not medium. Even if you do ethernet over usb, you still have to send Sysex. |
Why?
Where is this constraint coming from that dictates you have to use Sysex for communicating with a synth regardless of the medium?
If I build a synth that uses something other than Sysex to communicate with another device or VST, will the MIDI Gods descend upon this mortal Earth and see an end to my miserable and non-compliant existence?
Sysex itself was devised as a way of sending and receiving arbitrary binary data over the medium of Serial MIDI - nothing more.
Edit: For example, OpenSound Control is a proposed alternative to MIDI for intercommunication between synthesizers,s equencers and other audio devices. There's no SysEx! Korg could have opted to use something like this, or indeed a protocol of their own creation.
| Quote: | | Open Sound Control (OSC) is a protocol for communication among computers, sound synthesizers, and other multimedia devices that is optimized for modern networking technology. Bringing the benefits of modern networking technology to the world of electronic musical instruments, OSC's advantages include interoperability, accuracy, flexibility, and enhanced organization and documentation. |
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Korg Kronos 61, Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI (Sold, sob), MS2000BR, Monotribe, Monotron, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Roland JV-80, Kawai L1, Casio HT-3000 (Sold, sob), Lexicon MX200, Motu 828 mk3, Presonus FaderPort, Motu MicroLite, Rode NT1-A, Tascam VLX5 Monitors Tascam CD Player, Shure SRH840 Headphones. Shure IEM, Shure SM58, JBL PRX12 monitor wedge. |
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mathieumaes
Senior Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Did the Editor lose its way? |
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| Shakil wrote: |
What are the other ways? Sysex is the protocol, not medium. |
Basically, the sky is the limit. Using UDP/TCP is a very good option.
| Shakil wrote: | | Even if you do ethernet over usb, you still have to send Sysex. |
If you by sysex mean "binary data" then yes, probably. But it's the way how sysex aka binary data is implemented.
- MIDI is a very old physical medium, using 5 pins for transferring data, with a relatively low baudrate.
Even though MIDI is now layered in a USB connection, I bet that the basic idea is still kept, and caps transmission speed.
http://www.compuphase.com/electronics/midi_rs232.htm
- It's one-way communication, which means that the listening device can't provide feedback if the data is well received or not.
Even though your Kronos is connected on USB, it won't automagically add speed or better performance because you're still stuck with the heritage of MIDI.
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Old gig setup: Yamaha S90, Roland Fantom XR, Hammond XM-1, M-Audio Axiom 61
2011 gig setup: Korg Kronos 88 |
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Shakil
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 1083
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, that would be great. But if you would like to introduce innovation at that level, I prefer changing the sequencer song data format first. Most of the workstations now have some way of integrating audio tracks. These tracks are lost with SMF export.
We need a new standard file format to exchange both MIDI and Audio tracks. Then a Song could be exported/import to/from hardware sequecers and DAWs.
The sysex is not going anywhere. I really don't see a benefit of changing the protocol. If you change the protocol and medium allowing more bandwidth, then you will also introduce overhead of packaging the binary data. And you can't afford delay in MIDI. It has to be realtime.
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Roland Fantom-G6 ARX1, Korg M3-m exb-Radias, Korg Z1-18v, Roland MC-808, Roland MC-909, Korg microKontrol. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2221
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Sysex was never intended for realtime, that's what CC data and the like is for. |
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SeedyLee
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | Sysex was never intended for realtime, that's what CC data and the like is for. |
Exactly!
There are numerous issues with using Sysex for such large transfers - no multiplexing, no transmission control, lack of duplex etc. When the original MIDI spec was put together, synths with 60,000 odd parameters simply did not exist.
_________________
Korg Kronos 61, Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI (Sold, sob), MS2000BR, Monotribe, Monotron, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Roland JV-80, Kawai L1, Casio HT-3000 (Sold, sob), Lexicon MX200, Motu 828 mk3, Presonus FaderPort, Motu MicroLite, Rode NT1-A, Tascam VLX5 Monitors Tascam CD Player, Shure SRH840 Headphones. Shure IEM, Shure SM58, JBL PRX12 monitor wedge. |
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X-Trade
Moderator
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 5977
Location: Reading, UK
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Did the Editor lose its way? |
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| mathieumaes wrote: | | Shakil wrote: |
What are the other ways? Sysex is the protocol, not medium. |
Basically, the sky is the limit. Using UDP/TCP is a very good option.
| Shakil wrote: | | Even if you do ethernet over usb, you still have to send Sysex. |
If you by sysex mean "binary data" then yes, probably. But it's the way how sysex aka binary data is implemented.
- MIDI is a very old physical medium, using 5 pins for transferring data, with a relatively low baudrate.
Even though MIDI is now layered in a USB connection, I bet that the basic idea is still kept, and caps transmission speed.
http://www.compuphase.com/electronics/midi_rs232.htm
- It's one-way communication, which means that the listening device can't provide feedback if the data is well received or not.
Even though your Kronos is connected on USB, it won't automagically add speed or better performance because you're still stuck with the heritage of MIDI. |
You're not stuck with that baud rate at all. It is a part of the hardware specification which is different from the data protocol.
Many of Korg's synths achieve much faster data rates when using the correct Korg driver over USB.
Also, MIDI physical connection only uses two of the five pins for data transmission.
For example, a full data dump to the Radias over USB takes seconds compared to a minute or more when using a traditional MIDI connection from a 3rd party interface. It still uses sysex for the entire transaction.
But others are right in that the communication doesn't have to use MIDI at all, although someone pointed out that the virtual network connection established over USB was connected to MIDId so seems likely that the editor still would have used MIDI. For all we know, the Korg driver for the Kronos may still establish some virtual LAN tunnel over USB, but it seems to be wasteful encapsulation of data if you ask me, unless you're multiplexing a lot of different stuff down one connection.
But it could realistically use any kind of access from FTP or SSH direct config file access, to data manipulation APIs for proprietary daemons.. Doesn't have to be MIDI at all.
As for gaining shell access, A telnet or SSH daemon is unlikely to be installed by default, and afaik would need to run outside of single user mode.
Can't you just add Bash to the end of the initscripts?
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Current Gear: Kronos 61, Karma, RADIAS-R, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II, Novation ReMote37SL, Akai APC20, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2.
Past Gear: Korg TR61, Poly800, EA-1, Kawai K1
Software: Cubase Studio 4, NI Reaktor 5, FM8, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX(10.8.3 Mountain Lion) on 15" MacBook Pro |
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Chrutil
Full Member
Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 138
Location: San Rafael, California
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You're not stuck with that baud rate at all. It is a part of the hardware specification which is different from the data protocol.
Many of Korg's synths achieve much faster data rates when using the correct Korg driver over USB. |
I've been wondering about this too - Going back to one of the earlier editor threads where a Soundquest representative, whose name currently eludes me, indicated that an USB connection as opposed to a 5 pin DIN connection was needed for the editor to perform with the massive data transfers required.
So does anybody know what the actual bit rate is when using the Editor with the Korg USB driver? I've been toying around coding up some tools connecting to the Kronos using sysex but so far I have only used standard midi protocol and bit rates.
Thanks,
C
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Korg Kronos 88 #444 /3GB, Access Virus KC, Yamaha P80, Ensoniq EPS, Korg Microsampler, Arturia Minimoog V, Roland TD-12KX (Expanded), Fender Precision Bass, Martin Custom D Guitar, Sterling JP-60 Guitar, PRS Santana SE Guitar (signed), Reaper
Download the Korg Kronos Graphical AL-1/Polysix Editor |
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SeedyLee
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Did the Editor lose its way? |
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| X-Trade wrote: |
You're not stuck with that baud rate at all. It is a part of the hardware specification which is different from the data protocol.
Many of Korg's synths achieve much faster data rates when using the correct Korg driver over USB.
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Absolutely. Just try using the editor over a 5-pin DIN MIDI connection vs a USB connection, and the difference in speed is astronomical.
| Quote: |
But others are right in that the communication doesn't have to use MIDI at all, although someone pointed out that the virtual network connection established over USB was connected to MIDId so seems likely that the editor still would have used MIDI.
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Whilst it does seem likely, it's also possible that MIDId provided translation between the TCP protocol employed and MIDI.
| Quote: | But it could realistically use any kind of access from FTP or SSH direct config file access, to data manipulation APIs for proprietary daemons.. Doesn't have to be MIDI at all.
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Agreed.
| Quote: |
As for gaining shell access, A telnet or SSH daemon is unlikely to be installed by default, and afaik would need to run outside of single user mode.
Can't you just add Bash to the end of the initscripts? |
There is no SSH or Telnet daemon installed by default in 1.6. It's not simply a matter of adding bash to the end of the init scripts either, as I think it will bind to the console terminal which would not be accessible remotely. In fact, bash is loaded when the Kronos boots in order to process the init scripts. However, it should be possible to simply launch sshd from the init scripts, which will spawn a bash session upon connection.
Not that I know why someone would want to do all that. I'm just hypthosizing out of curiosity. I just like to try and understand how things work, but generally I don't modify things. I'm one of those people who, despite being immensely curious, refused to jailbreak my iPhone when I had one! I liked it just the way it was...
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Korg Kronos 61, Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI (Sold, sob), MS2000BR, Monotribe, Monotron, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Roland JV-80, Kawai L1, Casio HT-3000 (Sold, sob), Lexicon MX200, Motu 828 mk3, Presonus FaderPort, Motu MicroLite, Rode NT1-A, Tascam VLX5 Monitors Tascam CD Player, Shure SRH840 Headphones. Shure IEM, Shure SM58, JBL PRX12 monitor wedge. |
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Sina172
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 1262
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
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roblof
Full Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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After some work I managed to enter the shell using the vga + keyboard.
The command set is really minimal  so it needs some extras for doing real stuff.
The lcd-prompt that says startup failed is actually a timeout from the 'other brain' waiting for communication with the korg linux pgm.
I.e. that boot screen is not generated within linux, but from the embedded system.
The console is linked to the vga display.
I've been unable to edit the init-script since the partition is mounted read-only at this time.
So far, so good..... |
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SeedyLee
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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That's very interesting, thanks for sharing.
I believe that the progress bar is updated by "the other brain", until the Linux kernel boots. At this point, there is a named pipe (?) at /proc/progress which is used to update the progress bar.
What was involved in getting a VGA console up and running?
_________________
Korg Kronos 61, Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI (Sold, sob), MS2000BR, Monotribe, Monotron, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Roland JV-80, Kawai L1, Casio HT-3000 (Sold, sob), Lexicon MX200, Motu 828 mk3, Presonus FaderPort, Motu MicroLite, Rode NT1-A, Tascam VLX5 Monitors Tascam CD Player, Shure SRH840 Headphones. Shure IEM, Shure SM58, JBL PRX12 monitor wedge. |
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Davidb
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 1566
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Shakil wrote: | Yes, that would be great. But if you would like to introduce innovation at that level, I prefer changing the sequencer song data format first. Most of the workstations now have some way of integrating audio tracks. These tracks are lost with SMF export.
We need a new standard file format to exchange both MIDI and Audio tracks. Then a Song could be exported/import to/from hardware sequecers and DAWs.
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Agreed, Shakil.
+1
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Regards.
D. |
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