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DocBambs
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Joined: 30 Sep 2011
Posts: 160
Location: UK - Midlands
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 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Slightly off topic, but when I was at the International Summer Organ Conservatoire in the late 80s I attended a lecture on Alkan and the pedal piano. His instrument was a piano with a full pedal board wired to the bottom keys. It also had the three normal pedals discussed here.
A little pedal piano... (of a slightly different design)
http://youtu.be/E2UnhkKQRDc
DB
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ronnfigg
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Joined: 26 Mar 2011
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Location: CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: |
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And remember a Damper pedal is NOT a Sustain pedal. If you use the damper pedal in a synth patch it holds the Sustain level- it will not decay like a piano. I have been trying to figure out how to get this to function as a Release pedal on a per-patch (not global) basis.
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"To me the synthesizer was always a source of new sounds that musicians could use to expand the range of possibilities for making music."
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X-Trade
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Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 6494
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| ronnfigg wrote: | | And remember a Damper pedal is NOT a Sustain pedal. If you use the damper pedal in a synth patch it holds the Sustain level- it will not decay like a piano. I have been trying to figure out how to get this to function as a Release pedal on a per-patch (not global) basis. |
But typically a piano sound would have no sustain envelope section anyway.
Also with unlooped samples, you're going to get the full decay by 'sustaining' a sound.
On some sounds, the 'key off' for the release sound may trigger some mechanical noise. So if you weren't sustaining, that sound would be triggered too early.
So really if you're going to go to the effort of modifying the patch, you're probably better off just changing the envelope settings. Perhaps have the 'sustain/damper' message reduce the Sustain Level on the EG too.
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Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
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.Jens
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 383
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| ronnfigg wrote: | And remember a Damper pedal is NOT a Sustain pedal.
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It's completely the same - only a different name (and only the term "damper" is correct on a real piano - the term "sustain" is misleading in the ADSR nomenclature.
| Quote: |
If you use the damper pedal in a synth patch it holds the Sustain level- it will not decay like a piano.
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That's not actually what it does. The sustain/damper pedal just holds up any "note off" messages, so with every kind of instrument it acts like the keys were still pressed (maybe there are some more effects of the sustain pedal - like adding string resonance).
Any played note will go thru the ADS part of the envelope, however it may look like, and stay with the sustain level when in reaches the "end" of this part of the enevlope. No matter if it's the key pressed or the pedal.
"Release" only comes into play after releasing either key or pedal - again, no difference.
The only difference between "synth like" and "piano like" is the curve.
Piano: A short, D long, S zero - what you actually hear when a piano note "sustains" is a long decay.
Synth: A mostly medium to short, D (mostly) short, S has a finite level.
The pedal action is the same anyway (advance from "wherever you are" to R, when released)
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I have been trying to figure out how to get this to function as a Release pedal on a per-patch (not global) basis. |
Not sure what you mean here - are you talking abaout "piano-like" behaviour? Then it would be a "decay pedal" - just adopt the piano like shape of the ADSR curve. Or really affecting the release portion? |
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danmusician
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 875
Location: Southern PA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| .Jens wrote: | | ronnfigg wrote: |
If you use the damper pedal in a synth patch it holds the Sustain level- it will not decay like a piano.
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That's not actually what it does. The sustain/damper pedal just holds up any "note off" messages, so with every kind of instrument it acts like the keys were still pressed (maybe there are some more effects of the sustain pedal - like adding string resonance). |
Sorry to nitpick, but that statement isn't exactly what happens. The "note off" message is sent, but the pedal sends a controller 64 message that causes the tone generator to keep producing audio until a controller 64 message of "0" is sent. Many sustain pedals are simply "on/off" switches that send messages of 127 or 0. Some sustain pedals send intermediate value(s) which allow for effects such as half pedaling if the patch supports it. So controller 64 has the ability to modulate a sound in more ways than merely delaying note off.
Also, "key up" can trigger a secondary sound or effect - such as mechanical noise. In many instances, you would not want that trigger to be delayed until the pedal is released.
However, that reminds me of one of my favorite instruments back on the old Ensoniq EPS. The EPS had "patch select" buttons above the pitch/mod wheels that when held down would trigger a different sample layer. There was a Tenor Sax instrument that when you held down one of the buttons, on "key up" would play a sample of the sax player playing a fall. It effectively sounded like the player fell off the sustained note. But if you had the sustain pedal while releasing the key with the button depressed you would hear the fall sound while the note was sustaining. This was not the desired effect but did sound amusing to a music/tech geek like me! 
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ahutnick
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Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 378
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| I'll be checking out the Kronos 73 soon as I've only played the 61 key version and I'll hook up another pedal along with the sustain pedal and set it to controller 67 when trying the Kronos out. |
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.Jens
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 383
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| danmusician wrote: | | .Jens wrote: | | ronnfigg wrote: |
If you use the damper pedal in a synth patch it holds the Sustain level- it will not decay like a piano.
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That's not actually what it does. The sustain/damper pedal just holds up any "note off" messages, so with every kind of instrument it acts like the keys were still pressed (maybe there are some more effects of the sustain pedal - like adding string resonance). |
Sorry to nitpick, but that statement isn't exactly what happens. The "note off" message is sent, but the pedal sends a controller 64 message that causes the tone generator to keep producing audio until a controller 64 message of "0" is sent. [...] |
Yes, you are quite right. I meant that not in a literal way, and of course not from the "viewpoint" of the triggering keyboard - which wouldn't make sense anyway, as you could have different behaviour on each tone generator triggered by the same keyboard.
But from the "viewpoint" of the actual voice generator per note it's more or less a description of what happens - even if the technical wording lacks some accuracy.
My points were that
a) the name "sustain" pedal does not necessarily mean the same as the "sustain" in ADSR, because it affects the attack and decay part in the same way
b) there is no substantial difference between a "damper pedal" and a "sustain pedal" besides the names (it's the envelopes that differ!) |
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ronnfigg
Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 2141
Location: CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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So is there a way to assign the pedal as a "Release" pedal? I know there is a CC# for Release. Does the Kronos implement it as a pedal function?
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"To me the synthesizer was always a source of new sounds that musicians could use to expand the range of possibilities for making music."
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X-Trade
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Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 6494
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are getting caught up in the technicalities of the sound engine, rather than the behaviour of the end result.
Simply change the envelope to decay down to a sustain level of zero if you want it that way.
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Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro |
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.Jens
Senior Member
Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 383
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ronnfigg wrote: | | So is there a way to assign the pedal as a "Release" pedal? I know there is a CC# for Release. Does the Kronos implement it as a pedal function? |
I am still not quite sure what you want to achieve. If you want a piano-like behaviour, then this has nothing to do with release - it's as XTrade already pointed out: ADSR curve with rather long decay and sustain-level zero - this makes a sound immediately "piano like" in terms of envelope, and does not require any modification of CCs.
If you really want to change the release portion of the envelope (i.e. how fast the note decays after releasing the key and the damper), you could set the pedal to an (almost) arbitrary CC# and use that as AMS source in the EG section. |
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