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Timbre Volume Cutout on 4 Timbre Combi

 
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NJkeysman888
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Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:39 am    Post subject: Timbre Volume Cutout on 4 Timbre Combi Reply with quote

I created a Combi as follows: 1) Ferante Piano, 2) Ferante Piano, 3) Ferante Piano (transposed down 1 octave and key range from C2-C3 and key velocity > 100, 4) Japanese Grand, Velocity >110.

This gives me a thick sound, I can get a octave note for the bass keys where I run out of keyboard on my KronosX 61, and when I need it loud and bright, the Japanese Grand Kicks in.

While playing it today, after hitting several strong fully voiced cords, the Japanese Grand sound disappeared. Examining the Combi 1 found the volume on the Japanese Grand at 0. It had been at 127. I raised it to 127, began striking the chords again, now watching the screen and after several strikes I watched the volume for Timbre 4, the JG volume, moved to 0 in front of my eyes. I checked the performance meter and I never saw the polyphony go very high.

I played around with it. I returned Timebre 4 volume to 127 and saved it again. After playing around a while it seemed to hold. But I'm anxious to find out why one of my timbre's in a Combi would move to 0 on its own.
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.Jens
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typical issues to check are:

- KARMA
- unintended movements of sliders/joysticks etc.
- connected midi-equipment.

If it's nothing out of the above, this issue sounds very strange - but I'm quite sure there is a VERY simple solution once you know what's causing this.
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NJkeysman888
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Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was hoping for a bit more help. The vector joystick was centered. I was watching the screen where you can select the Timbres and then adjust their relative values with the sliders under each timber. I had no other Midi devices connected.

All 4 timbres were at 127. I started striking fully voiced chords, an F# holding 4 notes of the chord in my right hand, and octave F#s in my left. After the third or 4th strong strike, the slider on Timbre #4 jumped to 0.

It happened 3x while watched it, each time sliding the volume slider back up to 127.

Any other ideas anyone? I don't want this to happen in the middle of a gig.

Again, the timbre that jumped to 0 was one where I had the velocity set to 100 or 105.
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.Jens
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJkeysman888 wrote:
I was hoping for a bit more help.

Sorry if I have been too brief - but these are the items to check first. So, other midi devices can be excluded as a reason. You didn't answer the question if KARMA was on, though.

Quote:

The vector joystick was centered. I was watching the screen where you can select the Timbres and then adjust their relative values with the sliders under each timber.

Well, that leads us to a possible problem: If you are on this page, the hardware-sliders control the timbre volumes - but not immediately: if your set value is 127 and the slider is at the bottom, nothing will happen at first. But if you move the slider a tiny bit, so that it's value changes, e.g. from 0 to 1 or from 1 to 0, a midi message will be sent and the slider on the screen jumps to 0.
This can also happen during hard playing (the same is true for the (vector) joystick: if the keyboard is subject to "action", small movements of the joystick can occur).

If this is the cause, you can avoid this by either
- set all hardware sliders to a position according to their stored values (in this case: "all up").
- change the slider behaviour in the global menu from "jump" to "catch"

Quote:

It happened 3x while watched it, each time sliding the volume slider back up to 127.

Was it with different timbres? Or with the same each time? If the hardware slider is up and it still jumps, there might be a defective circuit board underneath the sliders - if the potentiometer has a bad contact, it might cause erraneous values. Maybe it's just a badly seated connector inside.

You are sure not to have any other midi CCs or AMS sources enabled for these timbres? Don't forget "Vector volume control"...
To really exclude any other cause, you should watch the screen in timbre mode again, without playing, and move around all of the sliders, knobs and joysticks. If any of them is affecting timbre volumes, you'll see.
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QuiRobinez
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
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Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's probably a simple explanation for it, but without the combi it's hard to determine what's causing it.
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NJkeysman888
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Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the reply and food for thought. Let me provide additional information and ask a couple more probing questions.

- KARMA: As a new person to Kronos I haven't experimented in learning KARMA at all. So I was not using Karma.

- No Midi Equipment attached.

- The original incident occurred while I was on the Set List page. I was intending to practice the song so I was just playing off the Set List when suddenly the higher pitched Japanese Grand sound disappeared. I went to the Combi to investigate why and noticed the slider for Timbre 4 at 0. I reset it to 127 without saving. Started playing again while on that page and saw it jump to 0 again. I repeated this several times. Then I played around, re-saved the Combi at 127 across the board and somehow it seemed to stay.

- Vector Joystick: This I have to honestly rethink. I know that this joystick affects sound radically (another feature I haven't fully investigated yet) and in my opinion it is a bit loose and does move from time time to time without me touching it. To prevent this when playing live, I usually remove all vector joystick functions if I can find out how, but I've not successfully figured that out on all synth engines.

Is it possible that the joystick was in a position that caused the Timbre value to jump to its physical position and override what the Combi called for?

- It was the same Timbre that jumped each time, Japanese Grand in slot 4. To correct it, I would tap on the slider to select it and use the slider to the left of the screen to reset it to 127.

- I do not yet know about using AMS sources to affect the sound. I simply assigned a Timbre to each of the first 4 slots, adjusted the key ranges and the velocity on #4.

- I will play while viewing the page you described and see what I observe.

- How do I post a Combi on here for others to evaluate?

Thanks again for the suggestions everyone. I love this keyboard and am grateful for this forum.
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NJkeysman888
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Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure this is a relative simple fix. I am not assuming I have a defective keyboard. I just need to understand what I may have inadvertently done to cause the issue. Thanks again.
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.Jens
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 383

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJkeysman888 wrote:

Is it possible that the joystick was in a position that caused the Timbre value to jump to its physical position and override what the Combi called for?

Depends - but in general, this is surely possible. E.g. if "vector volume" is enabled. But normally (if not explicitely programmed otherwise) a more or less centered joystick shouldn't alter the sound that way, if slightly moved. Positions near the outer ring are more prone to this.

Quote:

- It was the same Timbre that jumped each time, Japanese Grand in slot 4. To correct it, I would tap on the slider to select it and use the slider to the left of the screen to reset it to 127.

I am 90% sure to know what happened. In set list mode as well as in combi mode, the slider section on the left was probably set to "timbre", which means that the 8 leftmost sliders control the volumes of the timbres. The one for timbre 4 was close to zero, I assume. By raising the volume after the drop by touching the slider on the screen and using the "value" slider (the rightmost - would have been the same with the data wheel), the physical slider for "timbre 4" was still at zero, so each time this one would move a tiny bit, it will re-set the volume to (almost) 0.

To avoid this, you can (as I said) push the physical sliders up so they represent the stored values, or (safer) select another slider mode - e.g. "RT/KARMA" or "EXT" and save the combi again. This way the sliders affect parameters you don't need and which won't affect your playing.

Quote:

- How do I post a Combi on here for others to evaluate?

Copy it to an otherwise empty bank, and save a PCG file, containing just this bank (in disk mode, menu item "save PCG", deselect everything apart this bank you like to share) to a USB stick. Upload this PCG somewhere and share the link...
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