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jmchiro
Joined: 25 Feb 2011 Posts: 44
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:14 pm Post subject: Looking for 12 string electric guitar patch |
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Hi everyone,
I was playing my new Kronos in a jam last night and needed a 12 string electric guitar sound, and I could not find one.
Does anyone have such a patch to share? Thanks! |
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Mikeeee Junior Member
Joined: 01 Jun 2011 Posts: 71 Location: Middle of MIddle EARTH. NZ.
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:41 am Post subject: |
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thankyou Marty Cutler.
Quote/
Simulating 12-String Guitars
Most 12-string guitar patches are simply layered guitar samples that are tuned an octave apart. Unfortunately, that's not an ideal emulation, because the first two string pairs of a real 12-string are usually tuned in unison.
Instead of a using a preset 12-string patch, split the top two pitches from a 6-string guitar track and copy them to two separate tracks. Then, because string pairs don't quite sound at exactly the same time (depending on pick direction), slightly time-shift those tracks relative to each other. Quantizing one of the track pairs with a slight degree of randomization helps remove the timing uniformity between string pairs. Slight variations in Velocity can also help provide a more humanized performance. Additionally, you can add tiny amounts of Pitch Bend to simulate minute differences in tuning.
For the octave pairs, simply copy the notes to a new track and transpose the copied track down an octave. Then time-shift the copied track and add Pitch Bend as before. The results might not provide a letter-perfect simulation, but it will sound far more authentic than a factory-programmed 12-string guitar patch./endquote.
— Marty Cutler _________________ My Machines:-
Korg Kronos 73 key version 1.6.
Yamaha DGX-630-YPG-635. Tyros2, Yamaha MOX8, Yamaha PSR2100. Yamaha PSR950.
Technics KN930. Technics KN5000. Roland VR-700,
KorgPA4X76, Technics KN7000SX. kross 2 |
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Broadwave Platinum Member
Joined: 25 May 2011 Posts: 1118 Location: Manchester UK
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:55 am Post subject: |
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+1.
And don't forget, you have the option of "drones on top" or "drones on bottom". i.e Fender XII - on bottom, Rickenbacker - on top.
I usually use two patches (self sampled Telecaster). One as a regular six string patch, and one as the drones. If the drone track is delayed slightly you get drones on top, and if you delay the regular guitar track, you'll have drones on bottom.
I realise that it's a very subtle difference, but it CAN be noticeable sometimes. _________________ Synth DIY Projects |
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synthguy Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 661
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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My go-to electric 12 is, surprisingly enough, on an old Ensoniq workstation.
For those of you wanting to recreate a 12 string Rickenbacker patch, a Stratocaster does sound pretty close. You need a "twangy, wiry" guitar sound. I don't suggest you use the pitch randomization function in the oscillator, since this wobbles slightly over time, which guitar strings don't do. Unless you've had a few too many. Instead, I suggest you use a Random LFO and set it to Stop, then add a tiny amount to OSC pitch, both oscillators if the LFO behaves as I expect it does.
Also, make sure you set those "unison oscillators" to the right key range, as the top two strings are E and B respectively, so the octave OSC should end at A#, and the second unison string continue at B. And as noted above, delay the harmony strings slightly. _________________ PRAY FOR THIS PLANET!! |
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Sangria
Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 14
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'm persuaded that the advice offered here is the best available anywhere. However, as a rank beginner, I could use much more in the way of hand-holding in order to implement it. I would like to have a Kronos Combi that emulates the sound of an electric 12-string similar to what the Byrds used. I know it's a big ask, but would anyone be willing to give me detailed step-by-step directions that a complete beginner could follow to implement the advice already offered in this thread? |
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AntonySharmman Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Posts: 3599 Location: Hellas
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:59 am Post subject: |
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For demanding users here is the Pro EXs solution for Electro acoustic guitars http://wavesart.eu/KronosEXs/ElectroAcoustic%20Suite.html
where the contained 12 strings "Guild" with full articulations and bends is a decent solution for a real 12 Strings guitar among others. _________________ Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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Sangria
Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 14
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: Thank you, but... |
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Thanks. Great sound, but not exactly what I'm looking for. What I'm hoping for (and would be willing to pay for) is not an electrified acoustic 12-string. Rather, I'm looking for a 12-string sound that resembles what the Byrds used on "Tambourine Man" or "Turn, Turn, Turn." |
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AntonySharmman Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Posts: 3599 Location: Hellas
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Thank you, but... |
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Sangria wrote: | I'm looking for a 12-string sound that resembles what the Byrds used on "Turn, Turn, Turn." |
IMO , there is no 12 Strings guitar in Byrds "Turn" and intro was played by a single ordinary 6-strings E.guitar ...
So , You can easily replicate this exact sound using a lightly gained real Telecaster like in WavesArt Guitars Suite using just an etra Kronos
octave FX in direct input , as the guitarist probably did on this live video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T51nmyCODHQ
Hope this helps _________________ Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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Sangria
Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 14
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you. Very convincing. I will definitely explore this option. But despite my apparent error regarding the Byrds, I remain interested in emulating a Rickenbacker 12-string, too. |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Thank you, but... |
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Sangria wrote: | Thanks. Great sound, but not exactly what I'm looking for. What I'm hoping for (and would be willing to pay for) is not an electrified acoustic 12-string. Rather, I'm looking for a 12-string sound that resembles what the Byrds used on "Tambourine Man" or "Turn, Turn, Turn." |
I like the Byrds 12 string rick sound, too.
a big part of that sound is amp modeling FX. Not sure if Kronos has the right type.
I have it on my project list to see how close Kronos can be.
Are you doing 60's covers ? Or just want to mess around with a good Rick 12 string sound ? _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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Sangria
Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 14
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. For more than 50 years I've played keyboards in a dance band featuring covers of classic rock hits. We have not tried to duplicate the original recordings, but we strive to include any elements of the original records that we regard as essential. We have two excellent guitar players in our band, and they each bring many fine instruments to our gigs (including an electric 12-string). However, sometimes I can add depth to our overall sound with guitar-like support from my Kronos. I have a variety of personally tweaked Kronos Combis to do this, but occasionally I have wished that I could more closely approximate the sound of a Rickenbacker 12-string. Whenever Korg announces a new sound library, I always hope that an electric 12-string will be included. So far as I can tell, nobody has yet offered such a thing. |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Sangria wrote: | Thanks. For more than 50 years I've played keyboards in a dance band featuring covers of classic rock hits. We have not tried to duplicate the original recordings, but we strive to include any elements of the original records that we regard as essential. We have two excellent guitar players in our band, and they each bring many fine instruments to our gigs (including an electric 12-string). However, sometimes I can add depth to our overall sound with guitar-like support from my Kronos. I have a variety of personally tweaked Kronos Combis to do this, but occasionally I have wished that I could more closely approximate the sound of a Rickenbacker 12-string. Whenever Korg announces a new sound library, I always hope that an electric 12-string will be included. So far as I can tell, nobody has yet offered such a thing. |
I go back to the 60/70's. Fabulous decades for us musicians.
In my local area, there is little to no interest in 60's album hits. Sure , there is an occasional tribute band but thats a diff context.
You are right- I haven't noticed a good Rick 12 string for our K's. You will find that our K's are missing many guitars and is very light on other basic acoustic instruments. Plus we don't have the enough FX. For me, its a constant work around. Sometimes , 3rd party samples address, sometimes not. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
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Sangria
Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 14
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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There is indeed a very small market for classic rock covers. Through the years we've played mostly at high school reunions, college reunions, and birthday parties. In constructing our set lists, we nowadays mostly try to stay away from songs that have been brilliantly performed by the artists featured in the original recordings, preferring instead to concentrate on renditions where we can (with 50 years of practice and experimentation) arguably somehow improve upon the hit renditions while hopefully preserving the "feel" of the familiar original records. That said, we're still just a dance band -- we don't pretend to offer the sort of performances that folks would want to sit still and listen to. Obviously, most people who design Korg sound libraries are aiming their products at customers with very different needs than mine. However, although the Kronos has many strengths that are irrelevant to my needs, it produces many beautiful sounds that are well-suited to my needs. If nobody gets around to offering a 12-string sound as part of a sound library, I'm willing to try to roll my own, but I will need some help. I'd like to try to follow the advice offered near the top of this thread, but I'd need step-by-step instructions. |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Sangria wrote: | There is indeed a very small market for classic rock covers. Through the years we've played mostly at high school reunions, college reunions, and birthday parties. In constructing our set lists, we nowadays mostly try to stay away from songs that have been brilliantly performed by the artists featured in the original recordings, preferring instead to concentrate on renditions where we can (with 50 years of practice and experimentation) arguably somehow improve upon the hit renditions while hopefully preserving the "feel" of the familiar original records. That said, we're still just a dance band -- we don't pretend to offer the sort of performances that folks would want to sit still and listen to. Obviously, most people who design Korg sound libraries are aiming their products at customers with very different needs than mine. However, although the Kronos has many strengths that are irrelevant to my needs, it produces many beautiful sounds that are well-suited to my needs. If nobody gets around to offering a 12-string sound as part of a sound library, I'm willing to try to roll my own, but I will need some help. I'd like to try to follow the advice offered near the top of this thread, but I'd need step-by-step instructions. |
Sounds like you and your band have hit a happy medium on how to craft the classics.
I decided over a year ago to not emphasize covers(As a 1 man band).
Back then I had a ' stem ' of the song, the vocal as a standalone. No problem there. But when I laid down all the tracks(60's/70's), I ran into a few things.
1 was peoples memory of the 60's song really faded. 2nd, when I 'improved' the track with better sounding instruments and more rhythmic punch, I was told ' hey that doesn't quite sound like the record '.
I determined that I would have to be near perfect ( plus some silly visual) on the 60's/70's song. If I varied too much, my version came off cheesey.
If the audience was drinking and dancing and partying some song variation was probably ok. But per my local research, the interest in the 60's/70's material
was very small. And since I have to promote, I prefer promoting my original
material, and to be known by that.
If I can create a passable 12 String on the K I will let you know. I use to play guitar so I have a fair understanding. The program won't be overly complex. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sangria wrote: | T If nobody gets around to offering a 12-string sound as part of a sound library, I'm willing to try to roll my own, but I will need some help. I'd like to try to follow the advice offered near the top of this thread, but I'd need step-by-step instructions. |
Gave it a try. I stacked 3 New Age Hybrid Guitar programs together. Did some micro tuning variation ( pitch). 1 Program was tuned at 00. 2nd Program at +12(octave higher). I added a little chorus and reverb.
The Fx were definitely lacking. You likely know how a 12 string is set up. So the above is simple workaround
12 string Ricks were famous for drifting out of tune. I thought chorus might help that.
Its not a convincing Rick sound. Maybe half way there. I didn't play with 7 band EQ. If you insert that you might exaggerate the paired E strings and B strings.
The 12 string acoustic guitar on the Kronos is not in the ball park for what you want, IMO.
There is no amp modeling Fx to use either. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
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