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Korg Kronos X or Kurzweil PC3K8 or else ?
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synthguy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
That's very subjective. I adore how Kurzweil's filters sound, really.

Which is why I also mentioned the K2000R I still own. That filter thing really puzzles me.

Like Jeebustrain, I really dig that organ, and am surprised how many people have sneered at it. You do have to tweak the Leslie to get out of it what you want, but there are patches available which have some very well programmed Leslies in them. I've been able to do some cool things with it. Of course, that's within the organ model. Get outside of that, and the Leslie is one of the reasons I have so much hate for the design of the PC3. ANY OTHER synth makes it child's play to do any sort of assignment to control it no matter what environ it's in. Use it in a synth model on the PC3, and it can be a guessing game how to get control of it and assign stuff.

I also like the fact that the PC3 is kind of a baby FM Synclavier synth. It has bizarre waveshaping and other sound processing blocks you can build your own synth voices with, like a modular, so I wasn't that displeased that I found it wasn't as versatile a synth as my M3. The problem is, though, that it is bizarre, arcane, poorly explained how to get musically useful stuff out of it. Kurzweil and others have very simplistic explanations of this very powerful but technical system when what they need are a series of tutorials to walk you through things. The Mastering VAST website has some very good tips there, but you really need to ask a lot of questions unless you're one of the gifted who can grok this weird thing.

And again, the way it's structured isn't consistent within the voice and effect architecture, and on occasion it just won't act right, so you can have no clue if you're doing something wrong or it's just having a brain fart. Like many who have no clue what FM is, I've had to buy a few libraries and edit patches which have a sound I think I can use as the basis of something like I want. And I want to get to terms with this thing. Like FM, it does sound shaping nothing else will - kind of weird stuff good for space orchestra tunes or Reznor-like noises I want to do. But it just... AAARGHs me out, and with the Kronos, I have so much more power, EASY power I understand, which enables me to get those sounds. At some point though, I intend to set them both up and add a Jupiter-80 to them, and other than some analogs, I should have everything I need to do the music I want.

And yes, Kore64 intrigues me. I might save my pennies for that JP-80, but I doubt it's much more than $450 -500.

And one quick addition. I love Kurzweil and don't want to scare anyone away from a PC3. But you do need to know that if you want to tweak or program that you'll be buying a tiger that might bite your head off without warning. You'll likely want something to go with it, a Kronos, JP-80, a VA, Andromeda, clonewheel, something, just in case you get attacked and want a second sound source that does what you tell it to. I really didn't expect so much trouble from this thing, but I'm a synthesist, and demand a synth to do what it's told.
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthguy wrote:
I really didn't expect so much trouble from this thing, but I'm a synthesist, and demand a synth to do what it's told.


Curious - I always get from my PC3 what I tell it to do... Confused


Not saying you're doing anything wrong at all. Just that it works for me, I understand the machine and the mechanisms in it. It's like riding a bike now, second nature to me.
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cyyap95



Joined: 15 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok i just go to a local korg distributor ... or can i say the only distributor in my country ? = =

They don't have kronos 73/88 display
so i can only test RH3 key on sv-1

well... the keybed between kurzweil pc3k8, sv-1 , fantom g-8

i can say this 3 keybed not much different .... and i feel like the RH3 on sv-1
weight are almost near to kurzweil grand (ya i means grand)

but when compare with my upright pinao

i feel that those keyboard are heavier
is this the different between upright and grand key ?

and the price of them

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=76883
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1jordyzzz
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyyap95 wrote:
Ok i just go to a local korg distributor ... or can i say the only distributor in my country ? = =

They don't have kronos 73/88 display
so i can only test RH3 key on sv-1

well... the keybed between kurzweil pc3k8, sv-1 , fantom g-8

i can say this 3 keybed not much different .... and i feel like the RH3 on sv-1
weight are almost near to kurzweil grand (ya i means grand)

but when compare with my upright pinao

i feel that those keyboard are heavier
is this the different between upright and grand key ?

and the price of them

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=76883


AFAIK and IMHO, keybeds of professional workstation and stage pianos (namely RH3, PHA, etc) are tuned to emulate the touch of a concert grand.. not an upright pianos.. upright pianos had angled hammers, but grand piano doesn't.. that's why upright pianos had light keys (again IMHO).. i've tried grand and upright... even 1 grand i know (essex brand) has heavier keys than korg's RH3..
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cobi
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... here you can find some interesting informations regarding the weight of piano keys:

http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm

cobi
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jeremykeys
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't have time to read all of the posts in this thread but it struck me that one thing that wasn't mentioned was the functionality of each synth/workstation. I bought my Kronos 73 key because I wanted a weighted feel to the keyboard. I also bought it because I wanted 9 sound engines at my fingertips anytime I felt like having them.

As far as the sound goes, I think it all depends on what you prefer and how easy you are to be pleased. I absolutely love the Kronos piano sound. It totally works for me but I'm not you. You may not like it at all. I tend to create a lot of synth style sounds using the Polysix and MS-20 engines. I'm familiar with these synths and so they work for me.

I have no idea at all what the Motifs and Kurzweils are capable of but that is something that you yourself will have to decide.
For me; and I can only speak for myself; I simply wanted the most powerful workstation that is on the market. The "bang for the buck" so to speak.

I went for a Kronos. It simply does everything that I need and sounds amazing.
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popmann
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally couldn't even make a solid argument for the Kurz. And this is from someone who has played Kurz boards for decades. I guess maybe if you have a large collection of Kurz formatted samples...?

In terms of emulations of keyboard instruments...piano, EP, organ, digital piano, Clav--it's not close. The Kronos with its dedicated engines outstrips it by a long shot.

I'm not much of a "synth guy"...so, there may be architecture differences in those ASDR envelope/filter/engines that warrant debate--I wouldn't know. But, for emulation of classic keys, nothing in hardware comes close. Before the Kronos, I was resigned to having to use software in my studio for a decade or more because ROMPLER units are not markedly better than they were when I moved to software.
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djcactus
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might just be my manly fingers but even grand pianos seem to have lighter keys then most weighted workstations.

I always just figured heavier action sold well.
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jeremykeys
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that just depends solely on the player. I'm classically trained so I prefer the weighted action but for those that aren't I can see them leaning towards a lighter feel. Also organ players might prefer that.
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Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 accoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 2 cats!
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synthguy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
Curious - I always get from my PC3 what I tell it to do... Confused

Well, it depends on what you want to do. Have you created any custom chains that use DIST, WRAP and SHAPER blocks? Have you tried to make the Leslie effect work on synth patches and assign controls the same way they are in the organ model? Those were two big things that I had to fight for about three DAYS straight.

I know some people like everything about the PC3, and that's fine, but I find it strange how different the Kurz filters sound between the K2000 and the much superior PC3, and other than the "Mogue" filters, to me the 2000 sounds better. I'm not sure what to make of that. It's no big deal because I have an arsenal of synths which deliver pure synth textures supremely well, especially vintage synths. But I think it is something a potential buyer should be aware of, just like some insisting that Kronos doesn't thrill them. If you can't get your hands on one, you have to listen to a lot of net opinions and mp3s.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to assess sonic qualities from mp3s and YouTube samples to know for the most part what a keyboard is going to deliver. Unfortunately for me, mostly I heard a bunch of cliche patches on the PC3, but could tell that the thing had a high class sound. I bought it on a solid Kurzweil legacy which was mostly delivered. But the iffy 12db filters and compressed sound of the unit only became clear when I spent days with it, and then the sometimes inconsistent design of the engine bit me pretty good. This is one of those boards where the "RTFM!!" cliche won't always help.

One more thing. The proclamation from Kurzweil that "the VA-1 synth engine was included in the PC3" is a bit of false advertising. What they did patch in was some code for the oscillators and ONE filter model. Which is okay and all, but I was really disappointed that I didn't find the full featured VA with models of vintage synths I was expecting.
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthguy wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
Curious - I always get from my PC3 what I tell it to do... Confused

Well, it depends on what you want to do. Have you created any custom chains that use DIST, WRAP and SHAPER blocks? Have you tried to make the Leslie effect work on synth patches and assign controls the same way they are in the organ model? Those were two big things that I had to fight for about three DAYS straight.


WRAP and SHAPER are indeed a bit complex, but you can test them on a sine wave to see (oscilloscope) what they're going to do depending on parameter values. DIST is plain easy, though. Just gotta watch your gain staging in the algorithm (Pad parameter of some DSP blocks).

Regarding your Leslie question, do you mean assigning the buttons above sliders to do chorus/vibrato, perc, and so on? This is reserved only for KB3 mode... But it's not a problem to assign Leslie speed change to a pedal or a button at all (use FXMOD pages in the FX chain).


One thing that definitely differs between PC3 and K2000 are D/a converters, K2000 is more lo-fi, so perhaps that's what influences the sound of the filter. Also, PC3 has the Pad parameter for gain staging between DSP blocks in the ALG. K2000 didn't have it. This can change the response of the filter considerably.
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SEA



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Low Class wrote:
I have both the Kronos 88 and the PC3K8. The Kronos I've had about a month and the PC3K8 about 3 months. As mentioned, each has its strengths and weaknesses, but if I had to choose one based on the sound it would be the PC3K8. Each day that goes by my love for the sound of the Kronos is diminishing. It's a great keyboard, but the sound of it has struck me as rather 2 dimensional and cold. The only reason I don't regret buying the Kronos is because of the great deal I got on a non "X" unit, especially with the $200 rebate. But if I had to do it over I would have looked closer at the Motif XF8 with the 10th Anniversary package.


Great demo! Say... can you play 1 note trills using 2 hands and your index fingers real fast on the action or does it miss triggering? I have an S90 ES that I'm trying out that does it well. I might return it and get the PC3K8 but there isn't one around here to demo.

Thanks for your help!
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