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DAW VSTi workflow, please explain.
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pulmac



Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 12
Location: Monterrey,Mexico

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: DAW VSTi workflow, please explain. Reply with quote

Hi.

Somebody, please explain what is the idea of using the VSTi with a DAW in the computer.

I've tried different things, my goal.... use the DAW to build sequences and put them into .SNG files to be played on the MicroStation, so ...


first of all it took me a long time to figure out how to get rid of the annoying sync time when you add the VSTi in the DAW, when it starts it says it is "transmitting midi data"... out of where ??? it takes a long time and then it starts RECEIVING !!!! very wired, I think it is a programming error.

the Solution...

I have MS Editor V1.0.2, the .dmg file ( I'm using MAC + Reaper ) has a .MSTall file with "preloaded" data, so this is what I did...

1.- Open the Stand Alone version of the Editor
2.- Load the .MSTall in the Editor !!!
3.- "Save" a .PCG file from the Editor in a Directory
4.- Copy the .PCG file into the SD Card and load it in the MicroStation.
5.- in the Editor goto the GLOBAL mode
6.- TURN OFF all of the TOTAL RECALL & DATA SYNC settings.
7.- TURN ON the "Load data file automatically at start up"
8.- Click on ... UTILITY -> SELECT AUTOLOAD FILE
9.- Choose the same file used in (2)


There are to many things that don't make sense..

1.- Why do you need to "sync" if you can Load a Data file ?
those options should be mutually exclusive

2.- Why "can you sync a SEQ" with the Editor ?
the editor does not store songs ( as far as I know )
if so, is the DAW sending MIDI data to the Editor when you use the plugin ?
... and stores the sequence ... where ?


the DAW sequence stuff... I have tried the following..

DAW = Reaper
1 track with the VSTi plugin
all tracks "sending" MIDI data to the VSTi track with the VSTi
( you can not have more than 1 instance of the plugin running )
I make a test of a sequence.
Export it to MIDI
Put it in the SD card
Import it into a SNG using the same settings I had on the VSTi

result...
the sounds do not match


So... can anyone explain what you are doing ? what is the workflow ?

VST in 1 track ? ( I think there is no other choice )
Select the instruments in every part using the Editor ?
... and then where is all that information stored ?
Do I need to insert MSB/LSB + Program Changes in my sequence ? if so... then what is the point of having the Editor ?????
Finish the DAW sequence and then export to MIDI ??? there is no other choice ????

When I import the MIDI file into the MicroStation... are parts assinged by the means of the MIDI channel ?
Let's say I have 3 tracks in the DAW, 1 channel each, what happens when I import into MS - SNG ?? DAW-Track1-Channel-1 goes to ( for example...) MS-SNG-Part11 ( as long as Part 11 has MIDI channel-1 assigned ) ??

I'm a little lost.

There is an option in the Editor that says you can "Transmit SEQ" from the Editor to the keyboard... but the SEQ would be comming from .... where ?

Is there a way to send the MIDI data in the DAW "to the Editor" and then send the SEQ from there to the keyboard ?
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bradkorg
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Joined: 14 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: DAW VSTi workflow, please explain. Reply with quote

pulmac wrote:
Hi.

Somebody, please explain what is the idea of using the VSTi with a DAW in the computer.
---
Commonly DAW with its instruments/seq control/edit is used to create the end product: a song on track/mp3/wav/master cd etc. (common use your imagination)
---

I've tried different things, my goal.... use the DAW to build sequences and put them into .SNG files to be played on the MicroStation, so ...
---
mS is a stand-alone (limited DAW without PC) instrument with own Sequencer.
mS Editor on pc is the only way to edit/create mS synthesis/waveforms into programs/combinations.
mS Editor as VSTi in a DAW program is still acting the same stand-alone instrument, now with the added control of the DAW with usb midi in/out to mS as any standard external GM midi sound-module.
The DAW itself will do nothing more then processing the standard GM midi in/out data, mS will just act as any ext. midi controller

---

first of all it took me a long time to figure out how to get rid of the annoying sync time when you add the VSTi in the DAW, when it starts it says it is "transmitting midi data"... out of where ??? it takes a long time and then it starts RECEIVING !!!! very wired, I think it is a programming error.

the Solution...

I have MS Editor V1.0.2, the .dmg file ( I'm using MAC + Reaper ) has a .MSTall file with "preloaded" data, so this is what I did...

1.- Open the Stand Alone version of the Editor
2.- Load the .MSTall in the Editor !!!
3.- "Save" a .PCG file from the Editor in a Directory
4.- Copy the .PCG file into the SD Card and load it in the MicroStation.
5.- in the Editor goto the GLOBAL mode
6.- TURN OFF all of the TOTAL RECALL & DATA SYNC settings.
7.- TURN ON the "Load data file automatically at start up"
8.- Click on ... UTILITY -> SELECT AUTOLOAD FILE
9.- Choose the same file used in (2)


There are to many things that don't make sense..

1.- Why do you need to "sync" if you can Load a Data file ?
those options should be mutually exclusive

2.- Why "can you sync a SEQ" with the Editor ?
the editor does not store songs ( as far as I know )
if so, is the DAW sending MIDI data to the Editor when you use the plugin ?
... and stores the sequence ... where ?


the DAW sequence stuff... I have tried the following..

DAW = Reaper
1 track with the VSTi plugin
all tracks "sending" MIDI data to the VSTi track with the VSTi
( you can not have more than 1 instance of the plugin running )
I make a test of a sequence.
Export it to MIDI
Put it in the SD card
Import it into a SNG using the same settings I had on the VSTi

result...
the sounds do not match
---
see post 5: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=80508&sid=91d994852dbddf67e311114b28ebdbe1
---


So... can anyone explain what you are doing ? what is the workflow ?

VST in 1 track ? ( I think there is no other choice )
Select the instruments in every part using the Editor ?
... and then where is all that information stored ?
Do I need to insert MSB/LSB + Program Changes in my sequence ? if so... then what is the point of having the Editor ?????
Finish the DAW sequence and then export to MIDI ??? there is no other choice ????

When I import the MIDI file into the MicroStation... are parts assinged by the means of the MIDI channel ?
Let's say I have 3 tracks in the DAW, 1 channel each, what happens when I import into MS - SNG ?? DAW-Track1-Channel-1 goes to ( for example...) MS-SNG-Part11 ( as long as Part 11 has MIDI channel-1 assigned ) ??

I'm a little lost.

There is an option in the Editor that says you can "Transmit SEQ" from the Editor to the keyboard... but the SEQ would be comming from .... where ?
---
Instead saving/loading files to SD on mS, you can use the Editor to save/load/store the mS/files on the PC hdd, nothing more then the mS built-in Seq. capabilities.
---
Is there a way to send the MIDI data in the DAW "to the Editor" and then send the SEQ from there to the keyboard ?
---
NO, as mention before DAW will see the mS VSTi as any external connected midi device and mS Editor is working separated.


Last edited by bradkorg on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pulmac



Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 12
Location: Monterrey,Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

didn't answer my question :S

please, can somebody try to use a DAW on a computer and then bring the MIDI into a .SNG file ?
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bradkorg
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Joined: 14 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't save/transfer MIDI/SMF (.mid) files directly from PC DAW or mS Editor to mS SEQ.
The only way is to save SMF (GM .mid) file from DAW is to SD card, and load SD: SMF to mS SEQ. And even that the SMF filesize must not be greater than mS SEQ memorysize of 210000 MIDI events. (don't know the how much mb/kb, should be just around 1mb, you can see the free %mem on mS SEQ).

And from the loaded SMF file on mS, edit/save/convert there to SEQ (.SNG) file to mS SD card! [EDIT: THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE MS SEQ SONG DATA IS ON ITS BUILT-IN SD SLOT!]

[EDIT: mS Editor is a WYSIWYG editor [EDITOR HAS NO ACTUAL MS INT. SEQ REC/PLAY/EDIT TRACKS ETC. FUNCTION CONTROL] therefore actual seq. song data is controlled/saved/loaded on mS/SD itself.
So when using SEQ>UTILITY>Receive (All/1) SEQ etc. you can only store/save/load the SEQ (layout): Instruments setup/arp setup/effect setup etc. [NOT THE ACTUAL SONG=NOTES DATA!] files on PC HDD as MST setup files and transmit them back to mS]


Why, because mS is using its own unique DAW and its files is not interchangable between any KORG models other than mS.
The only compatibilty is using/edit/save it in the GM mode into SMF (GM .mid) onto mS SD card and take the SD card to PC!

Don't know if YAMAHA MOX6/8 is even capable to do it directly from DAW. (edit: is the same as using any device's unique internal sequencer, see: http://www.kara-moon.com/forum/index.php?topic=6416.0)


Last edited by bradkorg on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:27 am; edited 3 times in total
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pulmac



Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 12
Location: Monterrey,Mexico

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey bradkorg, so, what is the point of having a Plugin Editor ?
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Fezzler



Joined: 07 Apr 2013
Posts: 22
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New microStation owner myself and I was wondering the same thing.

I guess if you are in your DAW producing music or audio and need/want to tweak a microStation program (sound), by having the plug-in, I think the custom tweak settings are saved with the file/track so 10 years later you can recall that sound if you re-open the project/track.

Am I right? That seems to be the only value of it being a VSTi.
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pulmac



Joined: 24 Jan 2011
Posts: 12
Location: Monterrey,Mexico

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is frustrating, nothing seems to work.

I open de Editor ( stand alone ) edit instruments in a Song ( the default song ), save it as a .MSTsq in my comupter, then, close the Editor, re-open it and try to load the .MSTsq..... it responds with "Load Error" !!!!

So ?

I'm not even going to be able to save an instrument set ?
Sad
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bradkorg
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Common sense is this, when using a DAW setup with mS VST.
You are going to use the software DAW (midi) Sequencer etc. and the mS VST as a hardware midi soundmodule with its mS editor to edit sounds on the fly and/or using mS as a simple midi controller/keyboard.
---
Hardware VSTi vs software VSTi is no extra CPU emulation/processing hog causing extra latency/mS sound/better direct sound-quality output then PC audiochip? and depends on the personal setup, using extra external audio mixer/devices connected etc.
---
Actually if you was only into DAW, just get a midi controller and VSTi packs like Korg digital legacy packs etc.
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pulmac



Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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Location: Monterrey,Mexico

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradkorg wrote:
Common sense is this, when using a DAW setup with mS VST.
You are going to use the software DAW (midi) Sequencer etc. and the mS VST as a hardware midi soundmodule with its mS editor to edit sounds on the fly and/or using mS as a simple midi controller/keyboard.
---
Hardware VSTi vs software VSTi is no extra CPU emulation/processing hog causing extra latency/mS sound/better direct sound-quality output then PC audiochip? and depends on the personal setup, using extra external audio mixer/devices connected etc.
---
Actually if you was only into DAW, just get a midi controller and VSTi packs like Korg digital legacy packs etc.



I want to use the DAW because you have a better picture of the song while bulding it but at the end I'll like to end up having a .SEQ file in the MS to play it and may be play something on top of it.

is there any option ?
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bradkorg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only save as .SNG option is as mentioned through mS keyboard:
-In DAW (or mS SEQ) save the midi song as SMF (.mid) to SD card.
Take/load SD card SMF to mS SEQ song, from here (after editing the midi song) save the SMF as mS own SEQ/ (.SNG)!
-You want the mS SEQ/.SNG to be edited in DAW, then save this .SNG in mS as SMF (GM .MID) to SD, you'll lose the specific mS proprietory settings/ KORG instrumentbank etc.!

see post 5: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=80508
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pulmac



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

time has passed by and I still can't make it happen, i was trying last night with no success, it is a shame because the MS sounds very nice.

hey brad... if i get a "higher" keyboard in the range, let's say a KROSS or KROME will I be facing the same problems ? is handling MIDI files any better with a "better" keyboard ?
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johnroney
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: hooking up your daw Reply with quote

Quote:
time has passed by and I still can't make it happen, i was trying last night with no success, it is a shame because the MS sounds very nice.

hey brad... if i get a "higher" keyboard in the range, let's say a KROSS or KROME will I be facing the same problems ? is handling MIDI files any better with a "better" keyboard ?


check out this thread... i spell it out, but you have to read the whole thing...

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=87938

it'll be the same thing for the krome and the kross... i just did a comprehensive checkup of the kross, and it has a bit more sample memory, but otherwise very similar patches. BTW = it's not the sample memory (so much) that will make the sound 'exciting'... it's the FX. korg is quite good at this.
jr
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bradkorg
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pulmac wrote:
time has passed by and I still can't make it happen, i was trying last night with no success, it is a shame because the MS sounds very nice.

hey brad... if i get a "higher" keyboard in the range, let's say a KROSS or KROME will I be facing the same problems ? is handling MIDI files any better with a "better" keyboard ?


Yes, KROME is much better, that's the higher price you are paying for.
KROME has a Display TouchView graphical user interface, 7 inch TFT, WVGA (800x480 dots) touchscreen and built-in editor with pianoroll. No PC needed.
Just go to korg.com and download those manuals.
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pulmac



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well I did the same process with the Microstation before the purchase and I had the impression of being able to use the DAW to produce MIDI files with the MS Programs, have you actually tried this on the KROME ?

I don't want to be disappointed again
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johnroney
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:32 am    Post subject: correction.... Reply with quote

i have not been as comprehensive with the KROME... although, honestly, i believe that it is basically the M50... no? so, touch screen, yes, and on-board editing, etc... but if you want the visual power of a daw, go with a daw.

you CAN in fact use any keyboard with the DAW... nothing is preventing you... but the setup requires some knowledge of how the keyboard will react, and how to plug stuff in. read / download ALL the manuals first.
or, if you want the fast solution, go with a vsti library.
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