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Damper pedal problem/query
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pedro5
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the late reply.

The "hold" jack is the switch input socket that can work with a footswitch and set for various uses,hold being one.
(Settings are found in the same place as for the damper,in the Global P2 controllers etc).
I tend to use it as a sostenuto pedal input,which works quite well.

Best Wishes.
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ronnfigg
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pedro5 wrote:
Sorry for the late reply.

The "hold" jack is the switch input socket that can work with a footswitch and set for various uses,hold being one.
(Settings are found in the same place as for the damper,in the Global P2 controllers etc).
I tend to use it as a sostenuto pedal input,which works quite well.

Best Wishes.

So it is the "switch" jack. Thanks for clarifying.
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aron
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The krono used to auto sense - how could I have used the pedals for this long without it auto sensing? In any case it's just something to watch out for. Just set the damper polarity manually.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aron wrote:
The krono used to auto sense - how could I have used the pedals for this long without it auto sensing? In any case it's just something to watch out for. Just set the damper polarity manually.


Actually, the KRONOS has never automatically sensed the polarity of the connected pedals. You must set this manually. My guess is that you set this long ago and then forgot about it.
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ronnfigg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha damper pedals? you might wanna pop the back off of one of them and have a look. I have two of them and recently, on my Yamaha P 85, I was having some sustain issues. When I opened up the pedal I noticed that the switch on it (which is really kind of hokey) wasn't fully making contact (or not, I can't remember) when released. I could play with it and get it to work but from time to time it would act up. Not a very good design. You might want to just invest in some better pedals. The Korg is very good. the m-audios do fairly well also. but these are definitely a different polarity from the Yamaha. Roland is also like the Yamaha polarity-wise.
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aron
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

>Actually, the KRONOS has never automatically sensed the polarity of the connected pedals. You must set this manually. My guess is that you set this long ago and then forgot about it.

Possibly. However after this problem happened I did set the global manually and saved it. It is set correctly.

I have 3 sustain pedals with me and once the problem happens, there is no remedy except to turn the unit off. I've switched the pedals out and there's just no way to fix the problem.

Is there no global way to shut the engine off and have it reset the sound engine?

Ronnfigg, I have been using yamaha pedals since the 80's and yes the cord can break but I have found the pedals to be incredibly reliable. This is not an issue of the pedal being broken because I have a meter and I have tested all of these pedals.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
With + polarity, when the pedal is pulled notes will sustain (that is what happened - just surprised that this is so). However, when plugging in the pedal, the notes stop.


Yes, that is the expected behavior.

Quote:
I have 3 sustain pedals with me and once the problem happens, there is no remedy except to turn the unit off. Is there no global way to shut the engine off and have it reset the sound engine?


I *think* that changing the pedal polarity setting will stop notes held by the sustain pedal. (I can't verify this at the moment, however). Notes will also shut off after changing sounds twice.

Quote:
This is not an issue of the pedal being broken because I have a meter and I have tested all of these pedals.


If there's an intermittent problem - which was in fact the case with my previous Yamaha sustain pedal, now replaced - it might not show up in a test.

You mention that the problem recurred immediately after rebooting the Kronos:

Quote:
I pulled the damper out and even more notes stuck! I pushed in the plug again and tried to switch combinations and no good. Notes were stuck. I restarted the Kronos and waited 2 minutes for it to restart. Same thing - stuck notes. When I pulled the plug out - the Kronos sustained all notes - so I left it plugged in and did not use the pedal for the rest of the gig.


This implies to me that the problem was not in the software, but rather in the pedal. I saw something similar when my old Yamaha pedal started to fail.
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LZ
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have 2 Roland DP-2 pedals that I've had for a really long time that work great. I wanted a duplicate setup for home and rehearsal space, so I bought 2 more pedals, but GC only had the M-Audio ones, so I got them. One works fine, one has intermittent stuck notes. I believe it is the polarity reversal switch on the pedal itself. It is in the correct position, but I think it must just be kind of flakey. Usually when I get stuck notes, if I step on the pedal a few times, they eventually stop. It's only that pedal, the rest are fine.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I recall correctly, Yamaha pedals rely on a spring holding the pedal up against a contact, and stepping on them compresses the spring and breaks the contact. When they get old, the spring doesn't get the pedal fully up anymore (or not all the time), simply because gravity pulls the metal down. This means it never makes contact anymore and thus fails completely. Holding it upside down is an easy way to test if this is the issue.

EDIT: these things are really simple, mechanically, and unless some plastic part is broken or it's a half damper with a potmeter, it's usually very easy to figure out what it's supposed to do and why it's currently not. From an economical and environmental POV, I would always recommend opening it up and having a look. Sometimes all you need to do is bend a spring.
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ronnfigg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aron wrote:
>Actually, the KRONOS has never automatically sensed the polarity of the connected pedals. You must set this manually. My guess is that you set this long ago and then forgot about it.

Possibly. However after this problem happened I did set the global manually and saved it. It is set correctly.

I have 3 sustain pedals with me and once the problem happens, there is no remedy except to turn the unit off. I've switched the pedals out and there's just no way to fix the problem.

Is there no global way to shut the engine off and have it reset the sound engine?

Ronnfigg, I have been using yamaha pedals since the 80's and yes the cord can break but I have found the pedals to be incredibly reliable. This is not an issue of the pedal being broken because I have a meter and I have tested all of these pedals.



Read Sander's reply. This is what I was referring to. Not a bad cord but but a bad contact inside the pedal mechanism itself. And if the pedals you are using are from the 80s then there is a good chance the spring is compressed and not doing its job.
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aron
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will try a Korg pedal. I find it curious that I am using these 3 pedals without any problems whatsoever with my pc3, sy90es. Assuming the pedals are bad I would expect to see this happen with my other keyboards right?
These pedals are not from the 80's. Broke/lost those long ago.
Will report back. I sure hope it's this simple. I have a few concerts coming up and this cannot happen live anymore.
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ronnfigg
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a test you can try. Take a 2 conductor cable, audio or speaker, doesn't matter. Plug it into the Kronos. Take a small piece of wire, paperclip, screwdriver, etc and short the tip to the sleeve and see what happens. repeatedly. If this works then it is the pedals.
Have you opened the pedals to examine them? The switch in the Yamaha damper pedal is Normally Closed (NC). I believe it is called a "reed" switch. If the circuit is designed so that the "closed" position is 0 volts (shunt), then breaking the connection would produce a positive voltage, hence the +polarity designation in the Kronos. I am going to attempt to find the Yamaha pedal I had problems with and send you some photos.
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aron
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,

The pedals work for months. This is a totally intermittent problem. But even worse is that when it happens, you cannot switch pedals - I have 3 of them - once it happens there is no fix. I would be fine if I just pulled the pedal and continued playing but I cannot use the keyboard after this happens.

I will try the change the programs 2 times but I am darn sure I did that.

I understand what everyone is saying about the pedal itself but think about it. What are the odds that 3 pedals are all broken at the same time? No amount of pressing or inserting/removing the pedals will make the sustaining notes stop.

I switch sounds and yes, the notes stop, but when I play again, the notes sustain and it doesn't matter what pedal I put in after that. This may be a problem with my damper jack or something else.

Again, to repeat, there is no fix after the notes sustain. Only turning the keyboard off.

I'm thinking the Korg pedal might help in a good way. Hopefully when I pull the pedal, it doesn't sustain (if it's a pedal problem). Now the problem is that no one here has a Korg pedal. really.... the main Korg dealer doesn't have any.
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ronnfigg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I take it you didn't try the test I offered?
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LZ
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that it works well with my Roland DP-2 pedals and NOT my M-Audio pedals (that work with other keyboards), I'm guessing that the Kronos may not have debounce circuits, or that they are faster response at least.

When a switch makes contact, there's the possibility of noise as the switch makes and breaks. A debounce circuit ignores the rapid "on/off" from the noise untill the contact has been at one state or the other for a period of time (talking milliseconds or microseconds even). It seems that Kronos is more sensitive than other keyboards. With a high quality pedal, it doesn't seem to be an issue, but if a pedal has a noisy contact, it can cause problems.

Keep in mind, this is all just my assumption and I have not proven it, but it makes sense and would seem to explain the intermittent problem with some pedals. It would be really tough to verify.
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