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PA600 and Midi CC#84 (Portamento Control)
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sridharar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:52 pm    Post subject: PA600 and Midi CC#84 (Portamento Control) Reply with quote

Can anyone confirm whether CC#84 is supported in PA600?
Is anyone using it or has tried it?

Some contextual details for reference.

a) I am sending all the following MIDI messages from my laptop software.
b) I set up Portamento time using CC#5
c) I turn the Portamanto ON using CC#65
d) I play the note G4 on the keyboard.
e) I send a CC#84 message with start note set to G3.
f) Now I play Note A4.
g) I expected the portamento glide from G3 to A4.

But I am not seeing this happen.
The Portamento glide is only from G4 (the note played before) to A4.
As if there was no CC#84 or it has been ignored.


Am I doing this correctly?
Am I missing any setup preconditions?
Like setting to Mono and/or Legato?

Thanks Sri.
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sridharar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to add that CC 84 is for specifying a starting note for Portamento without actually playing the note.

Thinking about it, I guess one could achieve the same effect by playing that Start Note with Zero or close to zero volume. Without any loss of parsimony.

Sri.
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Thoraldus
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CC#84 is not supported.
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sridharar
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick

Thanks for the quick note. Yes it is a bit disappointing given that this would be a trivial addition to the Portamento capability. But getting used to these "gotchas".

Just curious and wondering whether your conclusive statement is based on your first hand experimentation or from some statement in the manual or conversation with Korg.

BTW is there a PA600 Midi Implementation Chart -- covering beyond what is covered in the PA600 Reference Guide?

Regards Sri.
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Thoraldus
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sridharar wrote:


BTW is there a PA600 Midi Implementation Chart -- covering beyond what is covered in the PA600 Reference Guide?

Regards Sri.


None that I am aware of.
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”It’s easy to play any musical instrument: all you have to do is touch the right key at the right time and the instrument will play itself.”

Johann Sebastian Bach

----------------------------------------------
Rick Stirling - Retired Electrical Engineer - Erstwhile Photographer
Korg Kronos2, Casio MZ-X500, PA600, AKAI MPD32, M-Audio Oxygen 25, ZOOM H6, Cakewalk Sonar
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sridharar wrote:
Just wanted to add that CC 84 is for specifying a starting note for Portamento without actually playing the note.

Thinking about it, I guess one could achieve the same effect by playing that Start Note with Zero or close to zero volume. Without any loss of parsimony


even if pa-keboards do not use cc84, i think the meaning of function of cc84 (portamento control message) often will be misunderstood.

cc84 only is used to indicate one singular note number to start gliding to the following note.
using cc84 also means to start portamento-function with a singular note without considering cc65 (portamento on/off).

if sending CC#84 with start note set to G3 only means that next note-on occuring with G3 will glide to note-number of next note-event after G3. Gliding only will trigger for this one note and also only in case foregoing note-event is without note-off.

using cc65 is made for portamentos with more than one single note-event. Portamento depends on note-events triggered by note-on of a following note-event, while foregoing note-event is without note-off.

cc65 and CC84 are independent of each - only common is using sliderates that will be set by the portamento time (cc5).
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sridharar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Siebenhirter

Thanks for your note elaborating on some subtle issues. I am afraid I may not be digesting the insights you have articulated. Appreciate a little more of your indulgence.

even if pa-keboards do not use cc84, i think the meaning of function of cc84 (portamento control message) often will be misunderstood.

Yes I would like to understand this better.

cc84 only is used to indicate one singular note number to start gliding to the following note. using cc84 also means to start portamento-function with a singular note without considering cc65 (portamento on/off).

Yes that is exactly the portamento behavior I am after. If that can happen independently of CC65 on/off settings it is even merrier. One less step to worry about.

if sending CC#84 with start note set to G3 only means that next note-on occuring with G3 will glide to note-number of next note-event after G3. Gliding only will trigger for this one note and also only in case foregoing note-event is without note-off.

You are making some important points here which I want to be sure I understand. Here is my interpretation and appreciate your confirmation:

Using CC#84, Portamento Start note has been set to G3
Hereafter, Portamento will be triggered anytime note G3 is played and
also turned off
Glide will happen from G3 to whatever note is played (say A4).
If this is correct then it is very different from what I was thinking would happen.

This is certainly quite different from what I was getting excited about CC#84. I was thinking that CC#84 would enable me to get the Portamento for A4 to begin from G3 instead of the note I played before playing A4. I was certainly not going to play G3 before A4.


using cc65 is made for portamentos with more than one single note-event. Portamento depends on note-events triggered by note-on of a following note-event, while foregoing note-event is without note-off.

My understanding is different and is confirmed by what I see in practice. After
turning Portamento ON, I can play a note, say C1, and release the key. Then play key A4, and the glide happens from C1 to A4 according to the set time parameter.

By turning on the "Fingered Mode" using Sound Edit for that patch, instrument, I can also get the behavior you are describing. That is I need to press A4 before releasing C1 to trigger portamento.

Have not figured out how to send "Fingered Mode On/Off" via a midi message.

cc65 and CC84 are independent of each - only common is using sliderates that will be set by the portamento time (cc5).

As I said this is merrier - that is, CC#84 will activate even if Portamento is set off using CC#65.


Appreciate your further comments.

Regards Sri.
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sridharar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Siebenhirter

Thanks for your note elaborating on some subtle issues. I am afraid I may not be digesting the insights you have articulated. Appreciate a little more of your indulgence.

even if pa-keboards do not use cc84, i think the meaning of function of cc84 (portamento control message) often will be misunderstood.

Yes I would like to understand this better.

cc84 only is used to indicate one singular note number to start gliding to the following note. using cc84 also means to start portamento-function with a singular note without considering cc65 (portamento on/off).

Yes that is exactly the portamento behavior I am after. If that can happen independently of CC65 on/off settings it is even merrier. One less step to worry about.

if sending CC#84 with start note set to G3 only means that next note-on occuring with G3 will glide to note-number of next note-event after G3. Gliding only will trigger for this one note and also only in case foregoing note-event is without note-off.

You are making some important points here which I want to be sure I understand. Here is my interpretation and appreciate your confirmation:

Using CC#84, Portamento Start note has been set to G3
Hereafter, Portamento will be triggered anytime note G3 is played and
also turned off
Glide will happen from G3 to whatever note is played (say A4).
If this is correct then it is very different from what I was thinking would happen.

This is certainly quite different from what I was getting excited about CC#84. I was thinking that CC#84 would enable me to get the Portamento for A4 to begin from G3 instead of the note I played before playing A4. I was certainly not going to play G3 before A4.


using cc65 is made for portamentos with more than one single note-event. Portamento depends on note-events triggered by note-on of a following note-event, while foregoing note-event is without note-off.

My understanding is different and is confirmed by what I see in practice. After
turning Portamento ON, I can play a note, say C1, and release the key. Then play key A4, and the glide happens from C1 to A4 according to the set time parameter.

By turning on the "Fingered Mode" using Sound Edit for that patch, instrument, I can also get the behavior you are describing. That is I need to press A4 before releasing C1 to trigger portamento.

Have not figured out how to send "Fingered Mode On/Off" via a midi message.

cc65 and CC84 are independent of each - only common is using sliderates that will be set by the portamento time (cc5).

As I said this is merrier - that is, CC#84 will activate even if Portamento is set off using CC#65.


Appreciate your further comments.

Regards Sri.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sridharar wrote:
My understanding is different and is confirmed by what I see in practice. After turning Portamento ON, I can play a note, say C1, and release the key. Then play key A4, and the glide happens from C1 to A4 according to the set time parameter


Hallo Sri,
can not believe that. Maybe you release the key, but maybe nevertheless there is a missing previous-note-off because using accompainment-holds or similiar functions?

Normally if all previous note-events are note-off you get no portamento triggered by the next note-on.

*********

Portamento-methode cc65:
For me the way portamento typically works with a pa-keyboard (not with smfs played with sequencer) is to trigger a new note before the previous not is released, so instead of cutting off the previous note it takes the old note to pitch of the new note. To do so, it is necessary to use CC65 greater 64 (Portamento on) and CC5 greater zero.


Portamento-methode CC84:
I am sorry about a mistake i made with cc84, as you need not send the same note-nr as defined in cc84 to trigger a single portamento-function.

it is right that cc84 only is used to indicate one singular note-number to start gliding to the following note and it is also right that cc84 means to start portamento-function with a singular note without considering cc65 (portamento on/off).

When a note-on-message is received after CC84, the pitch glides from the key-number specified in cc84 to the new note's pitch (at the rate set by CC5), ignoring the current status of CC65. This message only affects the next note-on received on the relevant MIDI channel.

I think this methode preferably is used in SMFs whereas it seems to be hard to do in a live-session (cc84 = one-shot-legato).
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sridharar
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Siebenhirter

Just a quick note here and I will write a bit more detailed later my day.

You can achieve the following portamento behavior on PA600 for any instrument. Hope it is good news for you to exploit.

Select any Style (does not matter which one)
Select track Upper2 (does not matter which one you choose)
Select any instrument for that track
Make sure you un-mute it.
You may want to mute the other tracks - just for clarity.
Now do Menu-> Track Controls for that track.
Select Easy Edit.
On the Portamento Box on the upper right hand side
Set the dial to say 50 (so can you will not miss it)
Fill/Check the Portamento Option to ON

Now you play C4 (any key is fine) and release.
Now you play C5 -- you will see a nice portamento glide.
Now Release C5.
Play C4 - you will see a nice glide back.

Works with all instruments - and regardless of the Portamento parameters of the instruments as configured via Sound Edit.

Regards Sri.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sridharar wrote:
You can achieve the following portamento behavior on PA600 for any instrument..

Hallo Sri,
I know portamentos behavior of Korgs-Pa-Keyboards and how it does work typically as you described it - you can do that with each pa-model, also with the old ones without portamento featured in easy-edit, but using midi-command cc65/cc5 greater zeroes.

Meanwhile we are far away from the original question, why CC84 does not work and i think you get a correct answer from Rick - cc84 is not supported.

And it looks like you also are satisfied with the portamento function as it is.
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sridharar
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Siebenhirter

Sorry if I belabored an understood point.

But it seemed from your note, that you were asserting that Portamento [in real time or via midi messages] would work only if the first key is released after the second key is pressed. I wanted to clarify that this is not correct.

Regarding the question of about CC#84, yes it is a pity that it is not supported. I will figure some other way - as it might be quite a nice feature for Indian music

Regards Sri.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hallo Sri,
how functions are realized in keyboards not always matches with specifications of MMA (MIDI Manufacturers Association).
MMA is the publisher and authoritative source of MIDI specifications.
For me in order to assess if a midi-function is right, i rely on specifications of MMA.
For me in order to assess how a midi-function would be handled by an instruments, i connect it with a midi-monitor-software to send and to receive messages - so i can assess how to use my instrument practically.

In case my instrument is not in accordance with specifications of MMA means to use them as it is.

Looking to MMA-specification of cc65: Portamento On/Off less equal 63 means off, more equal = 64 on. If using cc65 with Pa500 I see it is on with each value greater zero - for me it is not right, but it does not matter, as i have to use it as it is.

sridharar wrote:
.. asserting that Portamento [in real time or via midi messages] would work only if the first key is released after the second key is pressed. I wanted to clarify that this is not correct.


So i thought it looks like you also are satisfied with the portamento function (of your Pa600) as it is - so it is not important to clarify something to be right (with MMA or with Pa600), as you also only can use it as it is, even if portamento-function in easy-edit of Pa600 is not in accordance with MMA, but good for your use.

May be you are experiencing some surprises with some other midi-functions or other instruments not in accordance with mma, i think it does not matter, as you do not use mma but your pa600 with its individual characteristics.
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sridharar
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Siebenhirter

We are on the same page.

Midi Standards are good academic reference.
But for me, only the behavior of PA600 is relevant and what matters.
I will rely on whatever works on this and workaround those.

Cheers and Best Regards Sri.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Sri,
if you do not want to use one sounds portamento as it is, use your soundedit (Pitch/Pitchmode) and remark Fingered on/off, depending if you want restart portamento with each note or you do not want to restart with each note.

On my opinion so-called portamento is applied only between mono-legato-notes (the fingered part). The slide from one note to another is linear, not logarithmic, yet always takes the same amount of a constant-time linear part, depending on increasing time-value to produce a slower change in pitch.

Most modern hardware/software synths offer some choices for control sliding-/gliding-effects only related to the classic portamento-effect.

So a chromatic slide rather i would call "glissando" whereas fingered portamento (legato portamento) only uses portamento between mono-notes played legato.

It not seems to be portamento (with gliding-notes), if the note is retriggered and also it is not legato (without gliding-notes), as that means there is no new attack when changing note to note with no silence between notes. Portamento and legato generally both means not to re-trigger envelope generator each time a new note is played, otherwise disturbing a smooth flow to a melodic phrase.

But a fiddler says: Glissando is a when you slide a finger on a string from one note to another and a portamento is, when you slide from a note or to a note but do not connect the two notes.

Some synths have a mode where glide (portamento or glissando style) is only switched on, when you play in legato style, but with the non-fingered portamento of Pa600 a notes oscillator always is gliding from its previous position. No matter how you want to call this effect - use it if you like it!
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