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Danextgen
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 85
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| NuSkoolTone wrote: | | Danextgen wrote: | | danmusician wrote: | | I disagree with comments such as "the Kronos should have come with x, y and/or z." |
Well, i'll put it like this, the Kronos shouldn't have come with string, guitar, brass, etc, sounds that are for the most part complete joke on a keyboard of this stature.
The only decent rompler sounds in the Kronos are the Pianos, the EP's and the Organs and for me that is unnaceptable.
They should have remade the rompler part of the library with higher standards and not just reuse the bread and butter part of the Oasys (that was already bad in 2005). |
I understand danmusician's point. Though I agree with Danextgen here. Even in 2005 the ROM was just "Par" as a good hunk of those were recycled from the Trinity/Triton series. The awful guitars and barely passable strings my 2008 Motif XS still bests! I was really hoping to see more development from Korg on the Sound design front because of this. Legendary Strings ARE good, but use to much memory for me to consider...anyway.... staying on topic I love my Kronos and am glad Korg did it but also surprised those sounds didn't get a "bump" as well. |
2008 motif xs still bests ? lol
The late 90's Roland XV modules still completely destroy them! 
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AntonySharmman
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3598
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Dan , thanks a lot  , really appreciated !
| NuSkoolTone wrote: | | The heavy Electric Guitars are Horrible and sounded like whomever was playing the guitar being sampled has awful tone |
Actually the 11th guitar is a Gibson Les Paul sampled by semitone and velocity layers , after a Marshall overdrived amplifier , I do not like it either ,
but it can easily tuned and choosing your favorite overdrive in IFX , could suit better in any taste , btw wish the best for your hand !
| NuSkoolTone wrote: | | they really SOUND like samples and have no warmth to many of them. Also the texture between different sections of the library is not consistent. It sounds like a mish mash of different libraries |
Seems to totally disagree in any point of this remark , contrary they are very consistent and warmth according to your velocity values ,
I'm aware of one important thing in virtual strings ... the more warmth string sound , the more fake synth-type strings , you see
I'm strings conductor with knowledge to the real thing.
But I give you my one point for one only reason ... some demo parts were played just randomly in real time as I always do since
my target are pro Musicians , and they certainly know what they hear as I do ! Want fancy demos ? ... not from me !
| NuSkoolTone wrote: | | Now if you use Combis you can turn parts on and off |
You were very close but at the end you missed the main point too ... nope ... it's not switches , it's the secret weapon of Kronos since PROG lacks !
Let me put it this way , In order to develop a native instrument I need a sound with at least 2x16 independent multilayer Oscillators
with 2x 16 independent Filters/Pitch ENV/AMS/Amp/EQ/effects/timbre & velocity parameters ... and yes I can have them all .... in COMBI !
all the rest are up to me Dudes power of Kronos HD1 is DFD & COMBIS.
Thanks for your comments !
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Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V
Last edited by AntonySharmman on Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SanderXpander
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really mean to criticize because I do realize the incredible amount of work that goes into a library like this, but I think the strings library sounds more "sample-ish" in the demo because of the extremely short (non-existent?) release. There is a full tone, then, nothing. A natural violin would ring out very slightly, even disregarding the fact that a string player has to lift the bow from the strings which is itself less than instant.
All the respect in the world for your work, just commenting the way I hear it. |
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AntonySharmman
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | I think the strings library sounds more "sample-ish" in the demo because of the extremely short (non-existent?) release. |
You're always welcome
Briefly , when you release strings in a synth way you loose reality and aggressive phrases , the actual release in a Symphonic
orchestra are, first hall reverbation & reflexes and then the human asynchronous release that can't be recreated here !
In demos I follow industrial standards ... small amount of effects , the rest is up to you , but guys what do you expect
from a YT mp4 container !
Also as explained in info sheet , a violin sound consists of velocity multilayered body sound , bow noise , looping at the exact point that
bow is moving backwards or forwards , all mentioned articulations and of course the important body and note release in actual notes
so it exists even it can't be heard in a YT demo !
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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NuSkoolTone
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 1069
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| AntonySharmman wrote: |
Actually the 11th guitar is a Gibson Les Paul sampled by semitone and velocity layers , after a Marshall overdrived amplifier , I do not like it either ,
but it can easily tuned and choosing your favorite overdrive in IFX , could suit better in any taste , btw wish the best for your hand ! |
Thanks for the wishes. Unfortunately no degree of post processing will save those samples. Though it's rare heavy guitars are done right. Limitations on the Kronos necessitate the Guitars be already distorted from a real tube amp and sampled in that state for that sort of sound so extra care and time is needed. You might be able to do an overdriven version and add IFX, but I haven't experimented with it.
| AntonySharmman wrote: | Seems to totally disagree in any point of this remark , contrary they are very consistent and warmth according to your velocity values ,
I'm aware of one important thing in virtual strings ... the more warmth string sound , the more fake synth-type strings , you see
I'm strings conductor with knowledge to the real thing.
But I give you my one point for one only reason ... some demo parts were played just randomly in real time as I always do since
my target are pro Musicians , and they certainly know what they hear as I do ! |
I think you're missing what I said. The playability (Velocity curves etc....) sounds GOOD. The mic placement gives several of the samples a very hollow sound which is inconsistent with some of the other samples (Which are nice) where they are rounder sounding.
This could make them difficult to put together in an ensemble as they would sound as if they are being played in different spaces. Most likely phase and comb filtering will also be an issue. Regarding warm=fake, listen to some of Hans Zimmer's pre-production mockups he does. No shortage of warmth, and in many cases would have been "real" enough for the movie! You're a string conductor? Ok. I've recorded violins and cellos at studios as well, and have participated in Phil Harmonic concerts. I'm familiar with the "real thing" as well. Btw, my tax returns definitely qualify me as a "Pro" musician.
Playing things randomly shouldn't affect the tonality of the recorded space captured in the original samples. Unless you have some Radical EQ going on for certain patches?
| AntonySharmman wrote: | You were very close but at the end you missed the main point too ... nope ... it's not switches , it's the secret weapon of Kronos since PROG lacks !
Let me put it this way , In order to develop a native instrument I need a sound with at least 2x16 independent multilayer Oscillators
with 2x 16 independent Filters/Pitch ENV/AMS/Amp/EQ/effects/timbre & velocity parameters ... and yes I can have them all .... in COMBI !
all the rest are up to me
Thanks for your comments ! |
If you're talking about ranges and velocities I don't see why you aren't just crossfading at the program level. Unless you're doing it again at the combi level? Using controls for program parameters at the Combi level would seem a bit course to me, but I'd have to see your implementation. If you're reusing certain parts of the keyboard for articulations, chances are you're using velocity or switches. Certain articulations would sound silly "always on" which is what I was referring to for the "Switched" types. That is if you're trying to pack as much as you can in a single Combi IME. If there's something else you're doing I'll have to look deeper at the synth's architecture. It'd be interesting to see!
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Korg: KRONOS 73, M50-61, 01W/r
Yamaha: Motif XS7, FS1R
Kawai K5000S, Roland JD-990 w/Vintage Synth |
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AntonySharmman
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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NuSkoolTone
I never doubted that anybody could be a pro or more than this , I just said that this is my man ! 
Did you really heard a silly articulation in front seat violins or in Nylon Guitars ?
I always demonstrate with the same sound unless it's noted , but this is the best I can do in Kronos and be happy with that as I am , in a future
workstation release with more features , you might meet my original VSTi scripting skills in sample modeling , so for time being pick up
and choose whatever agrees with your tastes !
BTW Hans Zimmer is one of my favorite film composers
Excuse me for now but I have a Brass Suite to prepare for final release !
Thanks all for our discussion
Cheers
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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ed_f
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Joined: 03 Dec 2011
Posts: 1063
Location: Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| AntonySharmman wrote: | | BasariStudios wrote: | | we can not assign the same thing to Kronos, again, it is Deceiving. |
 Wrong ... Yes we can , those speculations expose your knowledge in modeling ,
but this is your problem , my problem is that you do not have the guts to blame me in public with your ignorance ...
I would not tolerate that ... OK my friend Nedim !!!
Let experts decide what is wrong and who is deceiving !
Discussion with you is over ... |
Ok - the question is still not answered. Nuance control by itself doesn't mean anything... what are you doing? What is required by the performer?
I can say moving the pitch wheel is nuance control. What makes your system better?
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danmusician
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Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 875
Location: Southern PA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Danextgen wrote: | | danmusician wrote: | | I disagree with comments such as "the Kronos should have come with x, y and/or z." |
Well, i'll put it like this, the Kronos shouldn't have come with string, guitar, brass, etc, sounds that are for the most part complete joke on a keyboard of this stature.
The only decent rompler sounds in the Kronos are the Pianos, the EP's and the Organs and for me that is unnaceptable.
They should have remade the rompler part of the library with higher standards and not just reuse the bread and butter part of the Oasys (that was already bad in 2005). |
And yet you and I bought it at this price with sounds that you consider to be a "compete joke." If Korg had put in the other libraries, necessarily running up the price, would you still have bought it? To complain about what it should have had is ridiculous, since you can easily buy what you need to make it what you want. Now, if you weren't happy with the stock keyboard, perhaps you should have made another choice. I'd rather not pay for electric guitars that I'm not gonna use. The ones that are in there are more than adequate for my very limited use. Apparently, Korg agreed with you that the stock organs were inadequate and gave us free ones. Not sure I expect them to do that for every category.
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Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49 |
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Danextgen
Junior Member
Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| danmusician wrote: | | Danextgen wrote: | | danmusician wrote: | | I disagree with comments such as "the Kronos should have come with x, y and/or z." |
Well, i'll put it like this, the Kronos shouldn't have come with string, guitar, brass, etc, sounds that are for the most part complete joke on a keyboard of this stature.
The only decent rompler sounds in the Kronos are the Pianos, the EP's and the Organs and for me that is unnaceptable.
They should have remade the rompler part of the library with higher standards and not just reuse the bread and butter part of the Oasys (that was already bad in 2005). |
And yet you and I bought it at this price with sounds that you consider to be a "compete joke." If Korg had put in the other libraries, necessarily running up the price, would you still have bought it? To complain about what it should have had is ridiculous, since you can easily buy what you need to make it what you want. Now, if you weren't happy with the stock keyboard, perhaps you should have made another choice. I'd rather not pay for electric guitars that I'm not gonna use. The ones that are in there are more than adequate for my very limited use. Apparently, Korg agreed with you that the stock organs were inadequate and gave us free ones. Not sure I expect them to do that for every category. |
I bought it (on an impulse based on a mixture of hype and a good deal) and in that regard (and others) it was one of the most dissapointing buys of my life. Even made an honest post here, in wich of course i was completely attacked buy people who defend it just for the sake of defending it.
I now have learned its strenghts and i like it and use it quite often in music making.
In this case i think you're defending it just for the sake of it as well. If they made a new decent library for it it wouldn't cost more. That's a stupid logic.
They should have offered a decent new base library and then sell other decent expansions for people who want to expand.
Not put a bad basic library and sell much better quality ones.
But hey, if you're ok with korg rehashing old horrible sounds on a top of the line keyboard then all the best to you!
I'm not.
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SanderXpander
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:43 am Post subject: |
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For me it works as is. They improved the most important areas for me beyond what the competition could offer; pianos, EPs, organs and synths. The strings and brass are quite workable in a band situation and I couldn't possibly care less about guitar, bass and drum sounds.
Just saying different people have different needs. |
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Pedja
Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 576
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:56 am Post subject: |
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I agree with statement that Kronos has to have good libraries in all segments of instruments. The philosophy, made a bad libraries, and after that sell a good one is a very bad manner (and always return like boomerang to firm). I complain about some really obvious under average combies, with loud and noisy drums. Sounds with not only imperfection in simulating real instrument, but with distortion nosy high tones.
I mean that Korg have to remake some sounds and combies and offer it to user for free. But, this is only my wish, in which I very little believe.
Only which we didn't lost is hope and Kronos.
Good luck for all, specially for good sound designer. I am impressed with his work but I really hardly collect money for Kronos X73, and I don't really have a money for libraries. I expect revision for free from Korg.
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Pedja
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Kronos X73, Kurzweil PC3LE8, ASM Hydrasynth, Arturia Keylab mk2 61, AKAI MPC Key 61
My music: https://soundcloud.com/pedjak-1
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AntonySharmman
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3598
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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If want to know my opinion judging of latest products evolution.
Workstations from know on , seem to consist of 3 important parts !
1) Hardware and control panel (the expensive part according to structure quality)
2) Operating System that provides the innovation & features we need
3) Rom (SSD based) Library
As you know the important part for the majority of users is part 2 , OS development and features that all engines are based on that.
So if a brand company decides to enhance part 1 then cost will be doubled (Oasys example) , this can't be altered and must include
all hardware modules for future major OS updates.
Now about Rom library , I think they have two options
- Enhance & develop all required sound libraries in a workstation and add let's say a 30 % extra cost but they can't guess all users needs !
- Keep an average sound development level of basics (fe Oasys based) , enhancing libraries related to engines they advertise ,
and provide users the option to choose what kind of sound libraries they want to focus via EXs Libraries.
This option will lower overall cost to users that want specific type of libraries.
Therefore UMHO , I see nothing wrong at today's status , regardless what we wish to be ! or better as I always say
"we get what you paid" !
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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danmusician
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 875
Location: Southern PA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Danextgen wrote: |
I bought it (on an impulse based on a mixture of hype and a good deal) and in that regard (and others) it was one of the most dissapointing buys of my life. Even made an honest post here, in wich of course i was completely attacked buy people who defend it just for the sake of defending it.
I now have learned its strenghts and i like it and use it quite often in music making.
In this case i think you're defending it just for the sake of it as well. If they made a new decent library for it it wouldn't cost more. That's a stupid logic.
They should have offered a decent new base library and then sell other decent expansions for people who want to expand.
Not put a bad basic library and sell much better quality ones.
But hey, if you're ok with korg rehashing old horrible sounds on a top of the line keyboard then all the best to you!
I'm not. |
Seriously, in all kindness, you should probably sell it an move on.
I'm sorry you feel attacked. I didn't read your other post, but if it's like this one, I'm not surprised. When you use terms like "rehashing horrible sounds" what did you expect? Did you think a forum of users who enjoy an instrument would say, "oh, you're right, we're stupid for loving this thing?"
This instrument does everything I need and more. I am VERY happy with it's sounds. It inspires me every time in play it and I've owned it for 3 years. Of course, I'll defend it. Do I think it has weaknesses, of course! What instrument doesn't?
Lastly, of course selling it with new libraries would cost more money. Sound engineers don't work for free. An instrument like this has a very niche market. Korg isn't going to sell hundreds of thousands of them, especially in this economy. Having talked with folks at Ensoniq during their heyday, I understand the decisions that must be made when bringing a device to market. Believe me, they want to put in as much as they can at certain price point.
Again, if I was as unhappy as you, I'd sell and move on. Life's way too short. Watch those $3,000 impulse buys, my friend. They rarely end well. 
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Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49 |
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NuSkoolTone
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 1069
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| AntonySharmman wrote: | NuSkoolTone
I never doubted that anybody could be a pro or more than this , I just said that this is my man !
Did you really heard a silly articulation in front seat violins or in Nylon Guitars ?
I always demonstrate with the same sound unless it's noted , but this is the best I can do in Kronos and be happy with that as I am , in a future
workstation release with more features , you might meet my original VSTi scripting skills in sample modeling , so for time being pick up
and choose whatever agrees with your tastes !
BTW Hans Zimmer is one of my favorite film composers
Excuse me for now but I have a Brass Suite to prepare for final release !
Thanks all for our discussion
Cheers |
Anthony, I think there might be a slight language barrier that is making it harder to understand what the other means exactly. This subject has a very precise context so we could be saying the same thing and not realize it.
Anyway, it's all good no worries. I wish you best of luck and it's always great to have another developer available!
_________________
Korg: KRONOS 73, M50-61, 01W/r
Yamaha: Motif XS7, FS1R
Kawai K5000S, Roland JD-990 w/Vintage Synth |
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NuSkoolTone
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007
Posts: 1069
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | For me it works as is. They improved the most important areas for me beyond what the competition could offer; pianos, EPs, organs and synths. The strings and brass are quite workable in a band situation and I couldn't possibly care less about guitar, bass and drum sounds.
Just saying different people have different needs. |
Here Here. What sealed the deal for me with the Kronos was the SSD streaming. When Korg allowed us to do user streaming it was a dream came true. Why? Because I knew at that point if I was willing to put in the work I could have any sounds I wanted. Possibly a tedious process but well worth it. It also extended the shelf life of this keyboard by YEARS. The only roadblock I see eventually is running out of RAM and programs space. Even so, it's quite capable and plenty for any Live project.
Beyond samples, the revised Organ is great and keeps things stand alone where I don't need a vent or can live that much longer without one. The synth engines I still have yet to scrape beyond the surface to see what they're truly capable up. Though I'd still REALLY like to see more (Mono/Poly for example).
Truly Hope Korg still offers more Sound Engines and Libraries.
Since I've decided I'm gonna keep her for like 10 years (I mean the last 3 have FLEW! How many boards have YOU had that were relevant for 10 YEARS? Not many!), I bought Karma and for live the sequencer is good enough. All serious work will be done in a home studio.
As far as sound design: I'm interested in Libraries that use the non-sample engines with lots of real time control. Sample Libraries I'm probably gonna do my own guitar, but still deciding on strings. I'm also DYING for some non-classical MOTOWN/CHICAGO horns for funk and pop!
_________________
Korg: KRONOS 73, M50-61, 01W/r
Yamaha: Motif XS7, FS1R
Kawai K5000S, Roland JD-990 w/Vintage Synth |
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