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Still struggling mightily with file management....
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Phinnin
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:39 am    Post subject: Still struggling mightily with file management.... Reply with quote

I know I'm just being dense, but for the life of me, I cannot seem to get my file management in order (sample management, to be specific).

So I run a handful of songs where I put some samples into combi's. A specific siren, the laugh at the beginning of Hungry Like The Wolf, etc. Everytime I try to add a new sample, I go down a dark path of broken links to programs, half saved stuff, frustration and the lot...

I usually end up with a new KSC file that bigger then the last with several iterations of every sample/MS. Totally redundant but I work it until I get everything working and then just give up. This lasts me until the band adds a new song and the process repeats.

So this time I decided I would try to create a new KSC file that I could load separately from my massive main autoload (factory stuff plus all my stacks of redundant samples). So here is what I did:

Is there a simplistic explanation for the sequence of load/save events (loading wav file, saving sampling data, clearing memory, saving pcg's) that will allow me to make a clear single .ksc file that I can add or remove from autoload as needed? The sheer amount of options (save with links to Exs, user banks; All, All multisamples, All Samples, etc.)?

I've read the manuals until I'm blue in the face but without a better grasp of the nomenclature, I stay pretty lost.

To summarize, in a perfect world, I would have my basic factory ksc, and a ksc for each other song I would use. That way, dumping a song would allow me to remove it from autoload and thus save the sampling data room in RAM, right?

Anyone know of a "KSC management for dummies?"
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geoelectro
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have about 25 custom samples I use for various songs. Typically they are located in combi,s and some are in sequences. When I finish making my sample(s), I convert it to a program and then save all samples. I name both the program and sample file the same name, usually the song reference.
Then, before a set I determine all the samples that need to be loaded and add them to the start up list in global.
These samples are all stored in a single folder called sounds. My sequences are stored in a folder called songs.

One issue I've had is I make a sample/program that is a backing track. Clear samples and now make a new sample/program of the click track. Doing a save all sample after each job, when I try out the two I get the last session sound on both. I learned that if on the second session if I save samples and check for it to make a new ID, then I only have to re select the new sample in its program one time, save it and everything works. Never understood that one.

Geo
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geoelectro wrote:
One issue I've had is I make a sample/program that is a backing track. Clear samples and now make a new sample/program of the click track. Doing a save all sample after each job, when I try out the two I get the last session sound on both. I learned that if on the second session if I save samples and check for it to make a new ID, then I only have to re select the new sample in its program one time, save it and everything works. Never understood that one.

Geo


The Program stores the bank (via UUID) and number of the sample. When you re-select the sample, it updates to use the new bank & number.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done some work recently revising the manual entries related to User Sample Banks. These will come out officially at some point, I believe, but for now here they are in text form.

* * *

Saving User Sample Banks: Examples

Revising an existing User Sample Bank

Let's say that you have a set of samples in a User Sample Bank, and you want to make a few changes to improve or expand it. You load the data into Sampling Mode and perform your edits, such as improving loop points, changing Multisample mapping, maybe even adding a few related samples.

When you save your Sampling Data, make sure that the Force new User Sample Bank ID option is Off (un- checked). Leaving this un-checked means that the User Sample Bank retains its identity; any Programs or other .KSC files which refer to it will continue to function as expected. For more information, see “User Sample Bank IDs” below.

Changing an existing User Sample Bank into something different

You might sometimes load data into Sampling Mode and then change a lot of the Samples and Multisamples, so that it’s essentially a new set of sounds. In this case, you’ll probably wish to save the result as a completely new User Sample Bank—rather than over-writing the original data. To do this, save your Sampling Data with a different name and turn On the Force new User Sample Bank ID option. This ensures that the original User Sample Bank, and any Programs or KSCs which refer to it, will continue to function as expected.

If you have Programs, Wave Sequences, etc. that you want to switch from using the original User Sample Bank to the new one, use the Remap MS/Sample Banks menu command to do so (you can find this on the Global Sample Management page, as well as any page with a Sample/Multisample bank select parameter).

Note that if you are a normal user (as opposed to a sound developer creating a file for distribution or sale) and you just want to add or remove Multisamples or Drumsamples—for instance, in order to save memory or create a “best of” KSC—you should NOT do this; instead, see “Creating combined or stripped-down KSCs,” below.

Creating combined or stripped-down KSCs

The great thing about User Sample Banks is that they let you use their data by reference, instead of by copying and editing the data itself. Let's say that you have three User Sample Banks: CoverBand_UserBank.KSC, SoloProject_UserBank.KSC, and Experimental_UserBank.KSC. You can then create additional KSCs to do any of the following:

• Combine all three KSCs into a single master KSC, which you can load in a single step
• Create different stripped-down versions of CoverBand.KSC, each containing the samples for a few of the songs.
• Create a “best of” KSC with only your favorite samples from the three KSCs.

All of these would take up very little additional space on the disk, don't require any editing in Sampling Mode, and don't require you to edit the original data in any way.

To combine all three KSCs:
1. Save any data you’ve created in Sampling Mode.(The next step will erase all Sampling Mode data.)
2. Load CoverBand_UserBank.KSC, using the Clear All option.
This clears out all other sample data, so that the KSC you save later will include only the data you’ve just loaded.
3. Load SoloProject_UserBank.KSC and Experimental_UserBank.KSC, using the Append option.
4. Save a new KSC with a different name (such as Combined.KSC), with Include set to “Links to EXs and User Sample Banks.”
This new KSC now links to all of the sample data from the three individual KSCs.

To create a stripped-down version of CoverBand.KSC:
1. Save any data you’ve created in Sampling Mode. (The next step will erase all Sampling Mode data.)
2. Load CoverBand_UserBank.KSC, using the Clear All option.
3. On the Global Sample Management page, set the Bank to CoverBand.KSC, and delete any unwanted Multisamples or Drumsamples.
4. Save a new KSC with a different name (such as CoverBandStripped.KSC), with Include set to “Links to EXs and User Sample Banks.”

To create a “best of” KSC with only your favorite samples from the three KSCs:

1. Save any data you’ve created in Sampling Mode. (The next step will erase all Sampling Mode data.)
2. In Disk mode, browse into the CoverBand_UserBank.KSC file.
3. Select one or more Multisamples (Multiple Select lets you choose two or more at once).
4. Load the Multisamples using the Clear All option.
5. Load additional Multisamples or Drumsamples from other UserBank.KSC files, using the Append Option.
6. Save a new KSC with a different name (such as BestOfEverything.KSC), with Include set to “Links to EXs and User Sample Banks.”
For more detailed step-by-step information on this approach, see “Creating a new KSC by loading individual Multisamples” below.

Editing User Sample Banks

At any time, you can load a User Sample Bank’s data into Sampling Mode and edit the Samples or Multisamples as desired, or add new Samples or Multisamples. To do so:

1. If the data is already loaded as a User Sample Bank, use the “Unload all in bank” command on the Global Sample Management page to unload the data before proceeding.
2. Go to the folder in which you’ve saved your KSC.
3. Select the “[name].KSC” file—the one without “UserBank” in the name.
4. Press the Load button.
The Load KSC dialog will appear.
5. Set .KSC Allocation to Clear Sampling Mode Data.
This is important, in order to preserve the User Sample Bank ID. For more information, see “User Sample Bank IDs,” below.
6. Press OK to load the data.
7. Edit as desired, but don’t change the numbering of existing Multisamples (or Samples, if you’ve used them for Drum Kits). If you add new Multisamples or Samples, add them at the end of the list.
Programs, Wave Sequences, and Drum Kits refer to Multisamples and Samples by their number in the bank. To make sure that existing sounds continue to work properly, keep that numbering the same.
8. Save the KSC.

Creating a new KSC by loading individual Multisamples

You can also load a few Multisamples from an existing KSC, and then save out the result as a new KSC.

Important: this example will delete any Samples or Multisamples in Sampling Mode! Make sure that you save any data that you want to keep.

1. Go to the Disk Load page.
2. Select a .KSC file on disk.
3. Press the Open button.
You’re now looking inside the .KSC file. Even though the .KSC file is just a list, pointing to other files, you can browse through it on the disk as if it contained directories. At the top level of the KSC file, you’ll see one or more folders, depending on the KSC: one for Sampling Mode Data, and one for each referenced User Sample Bank or EXs. If the .KSC file doesn’t have a type of data, there won’t be a folder for it.
4. Select the one of the folders, and press Open to look inside.
User Sample Data will contain one or two folders, for Multisamples and Samples. Usually, there will be both.
EXs and User Sample Bank folders will contain one or two folders, for Multisamples and Drumsamples.
5. Select a folder of Multisamples, and press Open to look inside.
6. Touch the Multiple Select check-box at the bottom of the screen, so that it’s checked.
7. Touch a few Multisamples to select them.
8. Press the Load button.
9. An Are You Sure message appears, to confirm that you want to load multiple files; press OK.
The Load dialog appears.
10.Set Sample & MS Allocation to Clear All.
When we save the .KSC file, we’ll be including all of the loaded samples. This option lets us start with a clean slate.
11. If you’re loading EXs or User Sample Bank data, set the Load Method for EXs and User Sample Banks as desired.
12. Press OK to load the Multisamples.
Now, only the selected Multisamples are loaded.
13. Un-check the Multiple Select check-box.
In order to navigate back out of the .KSC file, this must be disabled.
14. Press the Up button several times, until you’re back at the root level of the disk.
15. Use the Save Sampling Data command to save the new KSC.

User Sample Bank IDs

Under the hood, the KRONOS keeps track of User Sample Banks by a special ID saved in the KSC file. This lets the system find and recognize the User Sample Bank if you change the name or location on the disk, and even if it’s used on another KRONOS altogether.

An ID is initially assigned when the samples are created in Sampling Mode. This ID stays with the data as long as you load and save using KSCs—even if you save to a different location, or with a different name. It also stays with the data regardless of whether it’s loaded as a User Sample Bank, or loaded into Sampling Mode for editing.

It will not be preserved, however, if you load or save individual Samples or Multisamples.
If there are multiple files on internal disks with the same ID, the one with the most recent modification date one will be used. KSCs on USB storage devices are ignored for this purpose.

When you look at the bank name in Programs, Drum Kits, and Wave Sequences, you’ll see the full file path of the associated KSC file.

What triggers a change to the User Sample Bank ID?

Sampling Mode is given a new ID under the following circumstances:
• At system startup
• If the Clear Sampling Mode Data option is used when loading a KSC which does not include Sampling Mode data.
• When the Global Sample Management page’s Unload all in bank command is used for Sampling Mode Data
• When the Global KSC Auto Load page’s Do Auto-load Now command is used (unless one of the auto-loaded files includes Sampling Mode Data, as described below)
• On save, if Force new User Sample Bank ID is selected (see “Force new User Sample Bank ID,” below)

Sampling Mode assumes the ID of an existing KSC under the following circumstances:
• When a KSC with Sampling Mode data is loaded using the Clear Sampling Mode Data or Clear All options, or when Sampling Mode has not been used since startup
• Similar to the above, but when loading the entire folder of Sampling Mode data when browsing within a KSC
Sampling Mode keeps its current ID under the following circumstances:
• If Sampling Mode has been used since startup, and a KSC is loaded into Sampling Mode with allocation set to Append
• When individual Samples and/or Multisamples are loaded

Force new User Sample Bank ID

This option is available in the Save Sampling Data dialog, but not in the Save All dialog. It should be used only in special cases.

For instance, you might use Force new User Sample Bank ID if you have loaded a User Sample Bank, edited it substantially, and wish to save the result as a totally new User Sample Bank. After doing so, you’ll also need to use the Remap MS/Sample Banks menu command to assign Programs, Wave Sequences, or Drum Kits to use the new bank instead of the old one.
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Phinnin
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epiphany! Thanks Dan. I was making the error of not clearing the RAM before making saves which lead to giant ksc files.

So in summary, what I now will do is:

Clear RAM
Load Sample I want to build
Save KSC (all)
Add KSC to autoload
reload new KSC along with factory and any others I use
Make Programs from samples
Save PCG file to reflect changes.

Viola! Working as intended.

Thanks again.
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LZ
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This helps a lot.

I think one thing that was messing me up is being anal about keeping a back up, just in case I screwed something up. In fact, trying to do that DID screw me up. I was trying to always save a new file so that if something was messed up, I could go back to the old one.
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Yuma
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan's post is worth a sticky, imo.
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andrewt
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuma wrote:
Dan's post is worth a sticky, imo.


For sure, at least until it makes it into the next revision of the manual.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It certainly helps to have a few clear examples like that. I had the same issue as Phinnin. I think the confusion for me stemmed from the division between sampling mode/RAM and the userbanks - I figured if sampling mode was empty, I could load a collection in there, do the work and save it. But if you want to save userbank links, it saves ALL of them, not just the ones from sampling mode. So clearing RAM before any of these operations is key.
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timg11
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dan - Excellent explanation!

One question about your "To combine all three KSCs" scenario:

In this case, CoverBand_UserBank.KSC, SoloProject_UserBank.KSC, and Experimental_UserBank.KSC are going to have unique User Sample Bank IDs. Any programs that reference those samples will be saved with the appropriate User Sample Bank ID for that bank. When you save Combined.KSC, it presumably has a new User Sample Bank ID.

It would then be necessary to use Remap MS/Sample Banks to get the programs to reference the new Combined.KSC? And then after that was done, they would no longer reference SoloProject_UserBank.KSC, right?
So, the combining of the KSCs is really a "one way trip", and afterwards the original userbanks could be deleted (or archived with the original program banks before the remapping).

Or are you saying that the "Include Links to EXs and User Sample Banks" really makes Combined.KSC in to a "pointer" to the three original KSCs? In that case the original three User Sample Bank IDs are kept the same, no remapping of programs is needed, and you definitely would not want to delete the three original KSCs because they are still used?
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Yuma
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think user sample banks by default create pointers to the original KSC-files. The KSC-files don't get altered in the process. That's why user sample banks are so flexible.
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timg11 wrote:
Thanks Dan - Excellent explanation!

One question about your "To combine all three KSCs" scenario:

In this case, CoverBand_UserBank.KSC, SoloProject_UserBank.KSC, and Experimental_UserBank.KSC are going to have unique User Sample Bank IDs. Any programs that reference those samples will be saved with the appropriate User Sample Bank ID for that bank.


Yes. Note that the ID represents the KSC of the sampling mode data - not the UserBank KSC, which is simply a KSC which points to those samples. Many different KSCs can point to the same samples. This is true for EXs as well - for instance, there's the Preload.KSC, but also KSCs for the individual EXs.

timg11 wrote:
When you save Combined.KSC, it presumably has a new User Sample Bank ID.


Combined.KSC does not have a User Sample Bank ID. Instead, it points to the three other IDs (as you suggest in your final paragraph, below).

timg11 wrote:
It would then be necessary to use Remap MS/Sample Banks to get the programs to reference the new Combined.KSC? And then after that was done, they would no longer reference SoloProject_UserBank.KSC, right?
So, the combining of the KSCs is really a "one way trip", and afterwards the original userbanks could be deleted (or archived with the original program banks before the remapping).


There would be no need to use the Remap command, the original references will stay the same, and it is not a one-way trip.

See this part of the info about sample bank IDS:

"An ID is initially assigned when the samples are created in Sampling Mode. This ID stays with the data as long as you load and save using KSCs—even if you save to a different location, or with a different name. It also stays with the data regardless of whether it’s loaded as a User Sample Bank, or loaded into Sampling Mode for editing."

timg11 wrote:
Or are you saying that the "Include Links to EXs and User Sample Banks" really makes Combined.KSC in to a "pointer" to the three original KSCs? In that case the original three User Sample Bank IDs are kept the same, no remapping of programs is needed, and you definitely would not want to delete the three original KSCs because they are still used?


All of the above paragraph is correct.
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Phinnin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So awesome. Since this understanding broke open for me (thanks everyone, especially Dan), Sampling Mode has become a playground.

Powerful tool indeed.... /nods towards Kronos.
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DoubleM
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, thanks to Dan for his explanation. It helps a lot. Big time!

I just bought a (second) Kronos 88 and just was about arranging my preloads on it.

On my K 61 I always struggled with the huge size of the Legendary Strings EXs, that left too little space in my RAM for all the additional EXs I use in a live situation. Now, with EXs16 and those brilliant brass sections I might run out of RAM quickly. So, I´m seriously wondering, if I should purchase another KSL for my second Kronos or be fine with … let´say ... Sonatina Strings.

Unfortunately one thing still isn´t quite clear to me:

Is it possible to strip down an EXs library (esp. KSL)?
Is Dan´s explanation also valid for EXs?
And if yes, how is it done?
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it also applies to EXs. Dan has written down the exact steps necessary.
From his post:
Quote:

To create a stripped-down version of CoverBand.KSC:
1. Save any data you’ve created in Sampling Mode. (The next step will erase all Sampling Mode data.)
2. Load CoverBand_UserBank.KSC, using the Clear All option.
3. On the Global Sample Management page, set the Bank to CoverBand.KSC, and delete any unwanted Multisamples or Drumsamples.
4. Save a new KSC with a different name (such as CoverBandStripped.KSC), with Include set to “Links to EXs and User Sample Banks.”
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