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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| danatkorg wrote: | | I also agree that it would also be best to be able to store edits locally in a Combi or Song, as opposed to using references. Perhaps that will be possible in the future. |
I dearly hope so. I will remind you guys of a short exchange of posts between me and mr. Kay some time ago, discussing theoretical possibility of having non-referenced (encapsulated) combis for all banks in Kronos (which, at that time, didn't have banks AA through GG).
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=377442&sid=01691757112d568b06744ad1d2e5d4c4
Particularly, this post:
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=377502#377502
If Kronos had more than 4 GB of RAM, this wouldn't be a problem at all. It could have tons of available banks (AB, AC, AD...  ), all with encapsulated programs within combis and songs.
Imagine this situation: you can share a combi (or a set of combis) with just about anyone, without really worrying about loading the approprate programs being loaded at the correct locations in the program banks and if the references would work... Isn't that amazing? Load up those combis and they would just work, even if you had ALL programs completely different.
The only caveat would be HD-1 programs, which would depend on which samples you have loaded into RAM. However as I can see, OS v3 has an option to load required samples if Kronos finds out they're missing, so that at least solves that particular issue (of course, in case of particular EXs needed, you would have to own it)!
Last edited by EvilDragon on Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:26 am; edited 2 times in total |
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QuiRobinez
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2539
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| danatkorg wrote: |
Actually, I'd strongly encourage users to feel free to modify any and all Program locations.
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Well, only if you don't use combis, i definitely don't encourage this as this mess up all the combis that are using the modified program locations, if you want to modify a sound and use combis on the kronos then i would rather modify a program sound and save that one to a user location of your own. That way, all your combis will stay working the way they were ment to be.
The program editing in os3 is a great feature if you got inspired for a new sound when building a combi or song, but to be honest, the tone control feature already available is more then sufficient for 90 percent of the things i want to do in combi or sequence mode. I think most edits will be something like changing ADSR envelopes or cutoff and resonance levels to make sounds more fit in the mix. Changing the total character of a choosen sound is not something i do much in combis.
| danatkorg wrote: |
This is another case in which the built-in SSD is really useful: it's trivial to save snapshots of the entire system, and swap between them for different projects. I never worry about editing; it's easy to pull up the factory sounds again if necessary. I'll admit that I don't use a lot of pre-programmed Combis, however. |
totally true, but you need quite a good snapshot management (naming conventions) to get the sound set that you want again for that specific purpose. Also i know from the questions that i got that a lot of people are afraid to save and load sounds, since they are afraid to loose specific sounds. So completely changing the sound set setup of a kronos is something that is mostly done by 'power users' in my opinion.
But it's a real handy feature, for my own purposes i have an Ambient sound set snapshot, a dance and trance sounds snapshot and a pop sounds snapshot. I totally changes the sound of the kronos which is quite powerful in my opinion since it's like having three kronosses for different projects. |
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Dniss
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: Pale blue dot
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| QuiRobinez wrote: | | if you want to modify a sound and use combis on the kronos then i would rather modify a program sound and save that one to a user location of your own. That way, all your combis will stay working the way they were ment to be. |
This is exactly what I do. All the time. I have never changed a single factory program, because how would I figure out later which ones are not originals?
I save them under a meaningfull name, with the original location reference. Like: My Amazing Lead-IA056. |
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ryokorgjapan
Junior Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| QuiRobinez wrote: |
| danatkorg wrote: |
This is another case in which the built-in SSD is really useful: it's trivial to save snapshots of the entire system, and swap between them for different projects. I never worry about editing; it's easy to pull up the factory sounds again if necessary. I'll admit that I don't use a lot of pre-programmed Combis, however. |
totally true, but you need quite a good snapshot management (naming conventions) to get the sound set that you want again for that specific purpose. Also i know from the questions that i got that a lot of people are afraid to save and load sounds, since they are afraid to loose specific sounds. So completely changing the sound set setup of a kronos is something that is mostly done by 'power users' in my opinion.
But it's a real handy feature, for my own purposes i have an Ambient sound set snapshot, a dance and trance sounds snapshot and a pop sounds snapshot. I totally changes the sound of the kronos which is quite powerful in my opinion since it's like having three kronosses for different projects. |
Kronos saving entire system is fast and easy, but as 3 EXs and heavy SEQ user I want to manage banks more flexible at one snapshot.
I hope KORG giive us more USER Banks (U-AB, AC...) and movable EXs license system like Waves does.
I believe that way would attract more potential customers and expand Kronos 2 with library business. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Why would it matter if a sound is factory original, unless you don't like the sound you're getting? I think all these issues are built on fear that the factory presets are better than anything we could create ourselves. I view them as starting points and they're easy enough to reclaim from disk if something really gets messed up. |
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Purusha
Full Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Modifying the source program patches isn't unusual on other machines.
It just takes a bit of spade-work in organising.
What I normally do, is - for each "song" reserve 16 (or whatever number is appropriate) consecutive program slots in an unused bank and copy the source patches to there. Blocks of 16 programs within that bank then directly map to "songs".
Each track in a "song" then directly points to consecutive patches in the bank.
I do this all the time on my Virus Ti. I'd also do it on my Supernova 2, but these days I tend to use that mono-timbrely.
Virus Ti is a bit of on anomaly though, since the first 16 "multis" (as the Virus calls them - a bit like combis, or a song on Kronos) do hold their own version of program patches.
Last edited by Purusha on Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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michelkeijzers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Dniss wrote: | | QuiRobinez wrote: | | if you want to modify a sound and use combis on the kronos then i would rather modify a program sound and save that one to a user location of your own. That way, all your combis will stay working the way they were ment to be. |
This is exactly what I do. All the time. I have never changed a single factory program, because how would I figure out later which ones are not originals?
I save them under a meaningfull name, with the original location reference. Like: My Amazing Lead-IA056. |
With PCG Tools there are various ways to check this:
- Make a patch list with CRC values and compare them
- Use the differences list
_________________
Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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QuiRobinez
Approved Merchant
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2539
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | Why would it matter if a sound is factory original, unless you don't like the sound you're getting? I think all these issues are built on fear that the factory presets are better than anything we could create ourselves. I view them as starting points and they're easy enough to reclaim from disk if something really gets messed up. |
it only matters if you are using combis.
An Example:
in my combis i use a string sound from a preset, let's say, stereo choir 1. In my combi i expect it to sound just like the factory default and the whole combi is build around it. Also with tone control i've modified some values of the stereo choir in that combi to modify some of the sound parameters.
You have decided to modify the stereo choir to your liking, it sounds totally different. My combi is using your stereo choir sound, i have no idea what you did and how it sounds, also i add modified some parameters from your modified stereo choir.
The end result will probably be that the combi does sound totally different. I have absolutely no control anymore of the end result. If someone downloaded the combi and expect the same result as in one of my demo videos then they will be disappointed that it sounds totally different.
The only way to solve this is to load the factory set again and loose your own modified programs.
Therefor i always would recommend to store modified factory presets to a bank of your own. There is enough program bank space available to do that.
Of course this only applies if you are using combis, it doesn't matter if you use the factory combis or downloaded combis from third parties. As soon as you start modifying factory programs also the factory combis will sound different and not as they were intended.
If you don't use combis, then it's absolutely no problem to modify whatever you want. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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I understand the principle, Qui. And as someone who sells combis for a living I understand why you care deeply about this and I would expect you to recommend people to use the preset banks when loading your sounds.
Generally speaking, however, it's equally possible that if you modify a program in the factory presets and you play a combi that uses that sound, it will sound better, or just different. If it really sounds weird or not right it's easy enough to check the references and load a factory sound to that location (or a different one).
Philosophically I agree it would be much nicer if each combi would simply contain all sounds in itself, and also if you could simply add timbres as needed so that you don't have fourteen empty timbres for a simple split. Sounds could be organized by tags instead of banks and be essentially unlimited. But unless some really clever mechanism is thought up (that I can't think of) this would break midi compatibility. If you're going to be stuck with bank management anyway, I prefer the current method. Although easier management of programs to combis would be nice (akin to the new "load missing samples") function. |
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StephenKay
KARMA Developer
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Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2979
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| danatkorg wrote: | | StephenKay wrote: | | No. The Yamaha Mix Voices are a "hidden global pool" that is dynamically managed by the system. You don't have to think about it. If you just load a single song with edited voices, for example, they go "somewhere" and it all just works." |
It all just works - except when it doesn't.
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Aw, c'mon Dan - you could say that about anything, including the Kronos.
Anyway, I use both the Kronos and the Yamaha boards at this point, from a programmer and developer standpoint, and Yamaha's approach, while not perfect (nothing ever is), does solve several issues as far as I see it that are not handled equally well in the Kronos. I understand you feel Korg's approach is better (go figure).
| danatkorg wrote: | | StephenKay wrote: | | It's true that in Kronos you can modify any program location, but should you? If you do, any third party set of combis that uses that program may operate incorrectly. |
Actually, I'd strongly encourage users to feel free to modify any and all Program locations. This is another case in which the built-in SSD is really useful: it's trivial to save snapshots of the entire system, and swap between them for different projects. I never worry about editing; it's easy to pull up the factory sounds again if necessary. I'll admit that I don't use a lot of pre-programmed Combis, however. |
"I'll admit that I don't use a lot of pre-programmed Combis, however."
Yes, and that's why you can recommend that. If you did, you might not like having to replace all of the program banks in order to load a bank of combis. Most people don't, in my experience. I'm with Qui on this.
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Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com
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Dniss
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: Pale blue dot
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | Why would it matter if a sound is factory original, unless you don't like the sound you're getting? |
Say I find this nice sounding brass prgrm but I changed it so much for other uses that it's hardly recognizable.
A year later, looking for a good sounding brass timbre, I will pass right over this one because it has lost it's original timber once modified.
Make sense?
Also, I don't have to worry about messing up any combi.
Last edited by Dniss on Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dniss
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: Pale blue dot
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: | | Dniss wrote: | | QuiRobinez wrote: | | if you want to modify a sound and use combis on the kronos then i would rather modify a program sound and save that one to a user location of your own. That way, all your combis will stay working the way they were ment to be. |
This is exactly what I do. All the time. I have never changed a single factory program, because how would I figure out later which ones are not originals?
I save them under a meaningfull name, with the original location reference. Like: My Amazing Lead-IA056. |
With PCG Tools there are various ways to check this:
- Make a patch list with CRC values and compare them
- Use the differences list |
True! But not being too familiar with PCG Tools I try not to rely on it until I understand it completly.
I try to keep my work flow as simple and well organised as possible. Even then, I often manage to miss something. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Dniss wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | Why would it matter if a sound is factory original, unless you don't like the sound you're getting? |
Say I find this nice sounding brass prgrm but I changed it so much for other uses that it's hardly recognizable.
A year later, looking for a good sounding brass timbre, I will pass right over this one because it has lost it's original timber once modified.
Make sense? |
just jumping in here. I keep the programs untouched in their original condition/location.
I always make a copy, save it, and mangle the copied program as much as I like and save it as a new program/user bank/correct category.
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Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams 
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Dniss
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: Pale blue dot
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | | Dniss wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | Why would it matter if a sound is factory original, unless you don't like the sound you're getting? |
Say I find this nice sounding brass prgrm but I changed it so much for other uses that it's hardly recognizable.
A year later, looking for a good sounding brass timbre, I will pass right over this one because it has lost it's original timber once modified.
Make sense? |
just jumping in here. I keep the programs untouched in their original condition/location.
I always make a copy, save it, and mangle the copied program as much as I like and save it as a new program/user bank/correct category. |
This seems to only logical way to do it. |
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danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| StephenKay wrote: | | danatkorg wrote: | | StephenKay wrote: | | No. The Yamaha Mix Voices are a "hidden global pool" that is dynamically managed by the system. You don't have to think about it. If you just load a single song with edited voices, for example, they go "somewhere" and it all just works." |
It all just works - except when it doesn't.
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Aw, c'mon Dan - you could say that about anything, including the Kronos. |
If I ever say that something "just works" without including caveats, and yet there are obvious points of failure, please feel free to correct me as well. In this circumstance, Yamaha's approach is somewhat fragile, and unfortunately does not "just work" in the general case. I'd prefer something that's deterministic.
| StephenKay wrote: | | I understand you feel Korg's approach is better (go figure). |
What a silly thing to say. It's my job to improve things, not to toe a party line. My team's record with the OASYS and KRONOS speaks for itself. Data containment is something we haven't addressed yet, but as I've written I'd like to do so, and if and when we do I hope that it won't be via a cheap, fragile hack.
| StephenKay wrote: | | danatkorg wrote: | | StephenKay wrote: | | It's true that in Kronos you can modify any program location, but should you? If you do, any third party set of combis that uses that program may operate incorrectly. |
Actually, I'd strongly encourage users to feel free to modify any and all Program locations. This is another case in which the built-in SSD is really useful: it's trivial to save snapshots of the entire system, and swap between them for different projects. I never worry about editing; it's easy to pull up the factory sounds again if necessary. I'll admit that I don't use a lot of pre-programmed Combis, however. |
"I'll admit that I don't use a lot of pre-programmed Combis, however."
Yes, and that's why you can recommend that. If you did, you might not like having to replace all of the program banks in order to load a bank of combis. Most people don't, in my experience. I'm with Qui on this. |
I understand that you're also a seller of Combis which rely on the factory sounds.
It doesn't matter, however, because as I wrote above, I replace the Program banks *all the time.* The SSD is really handy for that; fast and easy. Users should never fear editing the factory sounds, since they are extremely easy to re-load when necessary. Once you're comfortable with loading and saving files - and it doesn't take much to get there! - this concern over editing data becomes irrelevant.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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