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Tune your KRONOS to 432hz
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NormC
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:51 am    Post subject: Re: Can't believe what I'm reading here Reply with quote

judit29 wrote:
I just bought a Kronos and now I want to adjust it to 432.00 Hz. Following this thread, I really can't believe what I'm reading here.
Instead of the product manager Mr. Dan Phillips finding a solution, he tells the customer that he's a stupid hoe, believing in non-sense.
When the customer wants to have 432.00 Hz, then make it possible for God's sake! My Yamaha MX49 can do it!!!!! Kronos not??? Gimme a break???
When the customer wants to have it, he wants to have it, whether YOU like it or NOT! It's none of your business if the theory behind 432 Hz it is "true" or "untrue" or "scientific" or not "scientific". This is NONE of your business! Make it HAPPEN! Find a way, KORG, and let us know!
Or maybe I should return the Kronos and get a Yamaha Montage instead. I'm so disgusted right now...


Welcome to the forum. If you wanted a poorly tuned instrument you shouldn't have chosen a Kronos.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: Can't believe what I'm reading here Reply with quote

judit29 wrote:
....
Or maybe I should return the Kronos and get a Yamaha Montage instead. I'm so disgusted right now...



Before you make a hasty exit though, looks like you're pretty familiar with this particular tuning. I would love to listen to your sound tracks, if possible?
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voip
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos tuning is in 1 cent steps, so can be got to within 0.06Hz of 432Hz, considerably less than the just perceptible difference, whilst the MX49 resolution is 0.1 cents, so the choices are -31.7 cents (432.01663260029187Hz) or -31.8 cents (431.9916790617484Hz), but not exactly 432.00Hz, (it may just be rounded to that on the display). Same for the Montage.

The ratio 440 to 432Hz is 31.76665363342928 cents.

Just a thought. Detuning a second oscillator or soundsource, to fatten a sound, might typically be +/- 3 cents, but could be up to +/- 16 cents. Expressive play, using pitch bend, or vibrato, maybe up to 100 cents. If the musical piece was being played or sung to a 432Hz tuning scale, how does detuning and vibrato fit into the theory? Does it destroy all the perceived benefits?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:
The Kronos tuning is in 1 cent steps, so can be got to within 0.06Hz of 432Hz, considerably less than the just perceptible difference, whilst the MX49 resolution is 0.1 cents, so the choices are -31.7 cents (432.01663260029187Hz) or -31.8 cents (431.9916790617484Hz), but not exactly 432.00Hz, (it may just be rounded to that on the display). Same for the Montage.

The ratio 440 to 432Hz is 31.76665363342928 cents.

Just a thought. Detuning a second oscillator or soundsource, to fatten a sound, might typically be +/- 3 cents, but could be up to +/- 16 cents. Expressive play, using pitch bend, or vibrato, maybe up to 100 cents. If the musical piece was being played or sung to a 432Hz tuning scale, how does detuning and vibrato fit into the theory? Does it destroy all the perceived benefits?

.


Good questions. And what notes should be played? Just all As? And is Equal Temperament the correct one, or should a different temperament be used?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:
The Kronos tuning is in 1 cent steps, so can be got to within 0.06Hz of 432Hz, considerably less than the just perceptible difference, whilst the MX49 resolution is 0.1 cents, so the choices are -31.7 cents (432.01663260029187Hz) or -31.8 cents (431.9916790617484Hz), but not exactly 432.00Hz, (it may just be rounded to that on the display). Same for the Montage.

The ratio 440 to 432Hz is 31.76665363342928 cents.

Just a thought. Detuning a second oscillator or soundsource, to fatten a sound, might typically be +/- 3 cents, but could be up to +/- 16 cents. Expressive play, using pitch bend, or vibrato, maybe up to 100 cents. If the musical piece was being played or sung to a 432Hz tuning scale, how does detuning and vibrato fit into the theory? Does it destroy all the perceived benefits?

.


From my understand of the maths, so long as your root A is 432 Hz the scale you use doesn't matter as the various scales throughout out human history still conform to a specific mathematically formula. So what you might say. Funny thing is that this specific mathematically formula can be found in every single living thing and object in our universe.


A quote by Nikola Tesla.
“If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.”

Consider this a mathematically blueprint that exists in everything throughout the universe. Be it an invention such as the laws that govern AC Current, Magnetic Fields, Atoms in your body, or the shape of a spiral galaxy.

If it helps any, here's a video that tries to explain Tesla's 3, 6 and 9 in simple terms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnEWOYKgI4o

Needless to say, this fits perfectly with 432Hz also. As for 440Hz vs 432Hz, I guess to dumb it down to it's most basic level, 432Hz is in tune with a formula that governs everything that exists, where 440Hz is slightly out of tune with everything. Even if the KRONOS can't do a perfect 432Hz, it's still going to be more in tune with the universe than 440Hz ever will.

All things considered, why go against nature?

Regards
Sharp.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dumb question time.....

Why we did we end up with A=440 instead of A=432?

Personally, these days, I keep an open mind on things like this.

Example: As a scientist I would say by default that astrology is a load of bunkum, and I used to think that. But I have a personal story where my eyes were opened, in as much as I still cannot scientifically explain it. My step nan was an amazing woman and an astrologist, and she used to make predictions that were too close for comfort about personal and world events. She made a set of predictions at the start of 1984 for the year, none of them seemingly connected and all had come true by the end of the year. Huge cosmic coincidence and a stroke of luck on her part, thus astrology is a huge load of crap? Or does it make you start thinking that the older you get, the more you realise that the universe is a strange place that we will not fully explain with science, and our sum total of knowledge about this strange place is minuscule?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might be an interesting experiment to take famous pieces of music (audio without vocals) and pitch-shift them down to 432 Hz, while time-shifting as well to maintain the correct tempo, and see if they sound any "better". Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek Cook wrote:
Dumb question time.....

Why we did we end up with A=440 instead of A=432?

Personally, these days, I keep an open mind on things like this.


Far as I know, Germany and England where pushing heavily for a standard to be defined in the late 30's due to travel between countries becoming common. Throw a World War into the mix and all this gets delayed until some time in the 50's where it was finally pushed through and agreed that A4 would = 440Hz. The fact that by this time the English Language was so dominant also helped that 440Hz was adopted.

Quote:
My step nan was an amazing woman and an astrologist, and she used to make predictions that were too close for comfort about personal and world events. She made a set of predictions at the start of 1984 for the year, none of them seemingly connected and all had come true by the end of the year. Huge cosmic coincidence and a stroke of luck on her part, thus astrology is a huge load of crap?


I have a true story I will share.

My youngest Brother is mentally handicapped. A normal day for him is a constant loop of repeating himself. Over and over it's the exact same nonsense talk every single day. He's always been like that. Never changes. He's 38 years old and you still cannot hold a conversation with him. He does understand basic things like when you tell him to do something but that's about it.

A few years ago he was offered a free trip to Lourdes where it's said that The Virgin Mary repeatedly appeared in the 18 hundreds. Lourdes is still hugely popular to this day as people travel there looking for miracles.

That being said. While he was in Lourdes our Nanny died here back home in Ireland. Nobody called my Brother in Lourdes to tell him because there's simply no point. He simply wouldn't understand or care either way. No member of my family was with him either, he was there with a crew of volunteers who make the trip every year to look after the handicapped. In short, nobody there knew anything about my Nanny passing away while he was there. Not that it would matter if they did as my Brother wouldn't process the information anyway.

But.... he had a massive experience while he was there.

The folloiwng is a once off event, and he's never been able to talk about this since.
When he came home the first words out of his mouth to my mother was that he meet Nanny in Lourdes and that she said that she's not spilling out any more (getting sick) and that she had to go to heaven. He said she was in his room and that my Nanny told him that he was a good boy and that everything will be all right and that not to worry that she loved him. Ending with her saying her goodbyes and to pass on this message to others not to worry about her that's she's going to heaven.

Needless to say my Mother was floored with shock and broke down in a heap. My Brother finished telling his story and to this day has never repeated it, nor demonstrated any ability to be able to talk like that every again.

A scientist would dismiss everything I've just said as it's impossible. However, fact is that this really happened.

Regards
Sharp.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp wrote:
Derek Cook wrote:
Dumb question time.....Why we did we end up with A=440 instead of A=432?

Far as I know, Germany and England where pushing heavily for a standard to be defined in the late 30's due to travel between countries becoming common. Throw a World War into the mix and all this gets delayed until some time in the 50's where it was finally pushed through and agreed that A4 would = 440Hz. The fact that by this time the English Language was so dominant also helped that 440Hz was adopted.

It was earlier than that...in the US, John Calhoun Deagan, the founder of the J.C. Deagan company which manufactured tuned percussion instruments, had been pushing for a tuning standard for a long time: "In 1910 Deagan persuaded the American Federation of Musicians, at its annual convention, to adopt A-440 as the standard universal pitch for orchestras and bands, thus settling a question which had long agitated musical circles. It was also accepted by the United States government and generally throughout the world." (from http://www.deaganresource.com/). Obviously, it's impossible to retune an instrument with solid wood or metal bars to match whatever pitch some other musicians or instrument makers think sounds best...

Now, of course, A=442 is pretty much the worldwide standard (it's still 440 in the US, though) and you have to special-order a Yamaha vibraphone at A=440 pitch...what the "standard" pitch is considered to be, has been going up for hundreds of years: higher pitches just sound "brighter" ("better"?) to musicians and audiences, warmer rooms and concert venues raised the pitch of instruments, etc....

df
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp wrote:
When he came home the first words out of his mouth to my mother was that he meet Nanny in Lourdes and that she said that she's not spilling out any more (getting sick) and that she had to go to heaven. He said she was in his room and that my Nanny told him that he was a good boy and that everything will be all right and that not to worry that she loved him. Ending with her saying her goodbyes and to pass on this message to others not to worry about her that's she's going to heaven.

Needless to say my Mother was floored with shock and broke down in a heap. My Brother finished telling his story and to this day has never repeated it, nor demonstrated any ability to be able to talk like that every again.

Thanks Sharp for sharing this great story. I am a believer so I am sure your brother saw/felt for real exactly what he said. I lived an "unexplainable" event too some decades ago, so I know there are good/protective angels/spirits. I won't hijack the topic though since it's yours and about tuning, but I'm glad to have read your story.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dfahrner wrote:
Sharp wrote:
Derek Cook wrote:
Dumb question time.....Why we did we end up with A=440 instead of A=432?

Far as I know, Germany and England where pushing heavily for a standard to be defined in the late 30's due to travel between countries becoming common. Throw a World War into the mix and all this gets delayed until some time in the 50's where it was finally pushed through and agreed that A4 would = 440Hz. The fact that by this time the English Language was so dominant also helped that 440Hz was adopted.

It was earlier than that...in the US, John Calhoun Deagan, the founder of the J.C. Deagan company which manufactured tuned percussion instruments, had been pushing for a tuning standard for a long time: "In 1910 Deagan persuaded the American Federation of Musicians, at its annual convention, to adopt A-440 as the standard universal pitch for orchestras and bands, thus settling a question which had long agitated musical circles. It was also accepted by the United States government and generally throughout the world." (from http://www.deaganresource.com/). Obviously, it's impossible to retune an instrument with solid wood or metal bars to match whatever pitch some other musicians or instrument makers think sounds best...

Now, of course, A=442 is pretty much the worldwide standard (it's still 440 in the US, though) and you have to special-order a Yamaha vibraphone at A=440 pitch...what the "standard" pitch is considered to be, has been going up for hundreds of years: higher pitches just sound "brighter" ("better"?) to musicians and audiences, warmer rooms and concert venues raised the pitch of instruments, etc....

df


Thanks df (and Sharp) interesting background
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp wrote:


Quote:
My step nan was an amazing woman and an astrologist, and she used to make predictions that were too close for comfort about personal and world events. She made a set of predictions at the start of 1984 for the year, none of them seemingly connected and all had come true by the end of the year. Huge cosmic coincidence and a stroke of luck on her part, thus astrology is a huge load of crap?


I have a true story I will share.

My youngest Brother is mentally handicapped. A normal day for him is a constant loop of repeating himself. Over and over it's the exact same nonsense talk every single day. He's always been like that. Never changes. He's 38 years old and you still cannot hold a conversation with him. He does understand basic things like when you tell him to do something but that's about it.

A few years ago he was offered a free trip to Lourdes where it's said that The Virgin Mary repeatedly appeared in the 18 hundreds. Lourdes is still hugely popular to this day as people travel there looking for miracles.

That being said. While he was in Lourdes our Nanny died here back home in Ireland. Nobody called my Brother in Lourdes to tell him because there's simply no point. He simply wouldn't understand or care either way. No member of my family was with him either, he was there with a crew of volunteers who make the trip every year to look after the handicapped. In short, nobody there knew anything about my Nanny passing away while he was there. Not that it would matter if they did as my Brother wouldn't process the information anyway.

But.... he had a massive experience while he was there.

The folloiwng is a once off event, and he's never been able to talk about this since.
When he came home the first words out of his mouth to my mother was that he meet Nanny in Lourdes and that she said that she's not spilling out any more (getting sick) and that she had to go to heaven. He said she was in his room and that my Nanny told him that he was a good boy and that everything will be all right and that not to worry that she loved him. Ending with her saying her goodbyes and to pass on this message to others not to worry about her that's she's going to heaven.

Needless to say my Mother was floored with shock and broke down in a heap. My Brother finished telling his story and to this day has never repeated it, nor demonstrated any ability to be able to talk like that every again.

A scientist would dismiss everything I've just said as it's impossible. However, fact is that this really happened.

Regards
Sharp.


Hi, Sharp

That is an interesting story, and the background as you explain with your brother it makes it even more so. My wife works with a mentally handicapped man, who i also meet occasionally, so I can well understand what you are saying. The universe is a strange place, and whilst my brain is wired more for science and logic, I know that it cannot explain everything. The older you get, the more you realise what you don't know vastly outweighs what you do!

So, I'll share a little about my Step-Nan's predictions. First off, she always struck me as a person who was quite in tune with things. For example, she would wake up with a foreboding about something bad about to happen in a country, and usually within a day, sometimes a little longer later there would be a natural disaster there.

Her predictions for 1984 were (the relevant key ones, otherwise this long post would be even longer!)
  • I would have a very troubled year, and money would be a significant problem (I sort of dismissed that one as really obvious, as I was a hard living, a little wayward apprentice at the time, "p*ssing a lot of money against the wall", but hold the prediction!)
  • My kid sister would meet a stranger and travel over water (none of the family had ever travelled out of the UK, as we were poor growing up and couldn't afford overseas holidays - mum was a single parent bringing up 3 kids with no support from my Dad, until she met and married my Step Dad, but he had a major Autograss accident just after they met, nearly lost his arm, and had to fold his self employed building business as he couldn't continue as a builder, so he had no income and money remained very tight until he had recovered enough to apply and get a job at Texaco!)
  • Nobody would be home for Christmas (ridiculous, so it seemed, as we were always home as a family for Christmas)


So these were the key predictions she made at the end of 1983 for 1984. Some geographic context for relevance. We lived in Pembroke, South Wales and I spent my teen years there and it was still the family centre. In 1981 I moved North a little to Cardigan area to start an MOD Apprenticeship at RAE Aberporth and lived in digs up there, and in 1978 my elder sister had moved back to Birmingham, where we originally came from, to be closer to her father again (and for some other non-disclosable reasons). My Step father, after recovering from his bad accident, worked in the oil refineries in Milford Haven (small relevance to the story). And of course my Mum, Step-Dad, kid sister, step nan and grandad all lived in Pembroke area. So the centre of the family universe was still Pembroke, and myself and elder sister came home for Christmas. Which is why that final prediction looked really out of the norm, as did the second.

As I said, the first prediction, could have been seen as the "Duh - obvs" one, but then there is cause and effect to think about on the others....

So, I had a really bad year for all sorts of personal reasons I won't go into on a public forum, but 1984 I still see as the darkest year of my life. Due to the personal problems that I won't go into, I ended up with major money trouble (not just the usual stern Bank Manager telling you off about your tiny overdraft, whilst you sat in front of his desk). Due to all the problems, I ended up not being on speaking terms with my Mum and Step-Dad - as I let them down in a really bad way to do with money. So I was not home for Christmas. I remember spending Christmas on my own (all my mates had gone back to their families for Christmas), shivering and under blankets for a week in a flat I couldn't afford to heat, the landlord threatening to throw me over the railings (second floor flat) if I didn't get his rent, and me contemplating suicide. So, yup, 1984 was an incredibly troubled year, the worst year of my life in ways that I could not have even contemplated when we were finishing off 1983. Strike 1, but maybe that was all coincidence, and my nan being a little prescient about my obvious living style coming home to roost? But the really big personal issues that nearly drove me to ruin only emerged in about May 84

In the summer of '84. A German national, living in Switzerland, was over in the UK finishing off his German National Service at the Castle-martin Army Tank Practise Range (a little West of Pembroke on the Pembrokeshire Coast). My kid sister met him, in a local pub she was waitressing in, fell in love with him, and within the month, after he was released ffrom National Service, went with him to back to Switzerland, where she still lives. So Kid Sister was not home for Christmas either, having met a stranger and travelled over water with him. Strike 2.

In December of that year, my mum had a major health issue and required emergency surgery. As my step-dad worked for Texaco oil refinery, he had very good private medical insurance, but the preferred Texaco hospital for private ops was close to their London HQ. As there was no time to try and arrange private care closer to home, my mum spent Christmas in a private hospital in London recovering from emergency surgery, with my Step-Dad stopping close by.

At that point it was not worth my elder sister coming back from Birmingham to Pembroke! Strike 3.

I tell that story to a few people, and it is still easy for people to dismiss it as a good example of cosmic coincidence, as I cannot give an explanation for it, other than my Nan was right and how on earth could she have foreseen that. Some people argue that it is still too generic and she did not give us the specific circumstances.....

The relevance of all of this to the thread? Just to show that science is not the only thing forming and shaping our lives. I would not dismiss the original subject out of hand without looking into it and trying it. The universe is indeed a strange place and strange "resonances" can and do occur. Our solar system is full of them, let alone the universe/multi-verse, etc.!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp wrote:
From my understand of the maths, so long as your root A is 432 Hz the scale you use doesn't matter as the various scales throughout out human history still conform to a specific mathematically formula. So what you might say. Funny thing is that this specific mathematically formula can be found in every single living thing and object in our universe.


A quote by Nikola Tesla.
“If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.”

Consider this a mathematically blueprint that exists in everything throughout the universe. Be it an invention such as the laws that govern AC Current, Magnetic Fields, Atoms in your body, or the shape of a spiral galaxy.

If it helps any, here's a video that tries to explain Tesla's 3, 6 and 9 in simple terms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnEWOYKgI4o

Needless to say, this fits perfectly with 432Hz also. As for 440Hz vs 432Hz, I guess to dumb it down to it's most basic level, 432Hz is in tune with a formula that governs everything that exists, where 440Hz is slightly out of tune with everything. Even if the KRONOS can't do a perfect 432Hz, it's still going to be more in tune with the universe than 440Hz ever will.

All things considered, why go against nature?

Regards
Sharp.


Be careful not to conflate patterns in nature with the patterns in human-created math systems.

We count to 10 because we have 10 fingers, and thus our main number system is base 10: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. The number 432 is base 10, and thus only has meaning within a base 10 numbering system. Its premise is base 10, and any argument invalidating that premise also invalidates any logical construct derived from that premise.

With the advent of digital computers, we now commonly also use binary (base 2: 0 1) and hexadecimal (base 16: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f). The number 432h (hexadecimal) is not the same as 432 (base 10). Indeed, any numerological argument attempting to mystify a seemingly enigmatic numerical pattern, like in the 3 6 9 video, can be completely rendered inert when that enigma is translated to a non-base 10 system.

So while pi, the golden ratio, the Fibonacci series, the inverse square, etc all definitely represent beautiful patterns in nature, don't confuse the map for the territory. Base 10 is the human-created map, but it is not the exact same thing as real nature, which is the territory.

In my estimation, extolling the virtues of 432Hz is akin to the circular logic upon which the ontological argument is based.

As an aside though, if you do an A/B comparison of a piece of music in 440Hz vs 432Hz, you can achieve a more pleasant sound with 432, simply because it is tuned down. Tuning guitars down gives a beefier sound not because of some base 10 reason, but simply because the physical tension is looser.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
This is where you're wrong. Science is not superstition. It has exact methods which are there to question everything and anything out there. If there weren't for science we'd still be held back in the dark ages. We wouldn't have any of the technology we have today. No synthesizers! Imagine that!

Instead of wasting time with stupid numerology blabber (seriously, if you try hard enough, you will find patterns anywhere, it's the way human brain simply is since it loves patterns, it feels helpless when there aren't any, so it tries its best to find them), you should probably do yourself some good and watch the Cosmos series by Carl Sagan, and later Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Smile


Math is used for HUMANS to understand things that’s all math in science is used for. Until proven all math equations are theoretical and science today’s says because it’s theoretical does not mean it’s not true. I can come up with my own equation to say a star will turn blue but that doesn’t mean it’s reality. The problem with science is people worship science because some guy named Carl Sagan said this or that. I respect what he did as a scientist but I do not believe many things he said because the majority of the stuff he and others say has not been observed!!!! I’m a math guy myself and I have a hobby of studying space but my conclusion that everything was formed by a creator. Example for earth to have life from the Big Bang many many things must have fallen into place perfectly. The scientific number is 10 power of 16!!!! That is 10 with 16 zeros following it. Maybe you learn how much one geographical area was changed in the 80s OVERNIGHT from a volcano!! It did not take millions of years but in a 24 hour period 50 square miles was changed over night on the west coast of the USA. Do you recall the name of the volcano?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a million for that Derek.

Sincerely appreciated you sharing that story. Amazing.

Sharp.
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