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An Ideal Synth For Ages..
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Aziz1008
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Location: Russia, Moscow

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject: An Ideal Synth For Ages.. Reply with quote

I have an intention to create the most versatile and never outdating synth. But tomorrow a car may hit me in the street, so I must share this idea before it dies with me) Because I like synths - I created analog and digital synths from childhood.

So idea is as follows. Looking at my musical hardware, two Tritons and their limitations in data exchange, I thought that it would be great to free a musician from all specific hardware, like specialized IC Korg chips, etc. All hardware logic can be programmed easily with todays CPU speeds. We should fully substitute specialised hardware with specialised software. Because this hardware is actually that thing that makes a synth outdated quickly, and if broken, binds musician to a specific vendor of that hardware, f.i. Korg.

So I decided that a perfect synth should be made modular, allowing user to change and upgrade all its parts freely. The easiest way to achieve that is using general desktop PC parts. This would ensure that synth has the most powerfull CPU on the market - Core i7, not Atom like in Kronos.

Another advantage is that instead of loading patches, this kind of synth can load whole virtual synths or even DAWs - imagine 128 different DAWS with inner setups consisting of dosen of VST synths! Which loads at a press of a button, and enables even user scripting if needed.

Imagine sampler using USB 3.0 advantages.. Possibilities are endless. A wide monitor with touch screen, PC running Windows or Linux and specialised synth software to communicate with DAWs and VSTs.

The only thing we should do to make this wonderful musical PC - is to get rid of all fans, substituting them with large fanless heat dissipating radiator, add preferred (Freedom even here!) 24-bit low-noise usb audio interface as DAC and ADC, and a decent midi keyboard.

Should appear a CPU of 5 Ghz or new motherboard - musician do not have to spend thousands of $$$, for a new keyboard, but simply buys newer CPU and\or motherboard.

Lets give it a name: AMCW - Advanced Multimedia Computer Workstation, or AMPC - Advanced Musical Personal Computer. Smile) Suggest your name)


Last edited by Aziz1008 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been tried in various forms already. It hasn't really caught on yet. It would be very expensive. You'd also need a custom OS or some kind of unified "vision" on how to create, edit, layer, manage and store sounds.

Native Instruments is making a decent effort with their Komplete Kontrol, as is Akai with their Advance Pro. Add PC of your choice, basically.
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Aziz1008
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Location: Russia, Moscow

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, there's a device called Receptor out there - it's a hardware VST player. The idea of hardware VST player came to my mind, i googled and found that someone had already done it in the form of Receptor, but it is not as open and versatile as modular synth.

As to expensiveness - user can use chips and motherboard he can afford. The only complex and may be expensive thing would be a fanless and noiseless as well as universal (adapters for different CPUs) heat dissipating system. User also can choose which OS to install - total flexibility.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're doing something home built, sure, many people already do that. That is fundamentally different from an actual synth though. What would you be selling? Just software? The cheapest decent VST host is MainStage at 30 bucks. But then you're stuck with Mac stuff /OSX. Brianspawn Forte and Cantabile are between 150 and 300, and they're just hosts. Add Komplete or something and the price goes up by another 500 (on a good deal!). At this point you're stuck with Windows, so buy Windows for 100 bucks. Now at 750 or so. No hardware yet. Can you see where I'm going?
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Aziz1008
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Location: Russia, Moscow

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Expenses can be limited to hardware upgrade only + a free OS like Linux + a free versatile modular synth or host. There are already some of them, even Linux VST host. And again, you have to pay only for what you need, and if you learn programming and write your own plugins, then its free. The Flowstone environment under Windows allows to create almost anything with sound. VSTboard modular host is free and has ability to switch between whole setups and projects via Midi note or controller change. I think that a lifetime licence for Windows + Flowstone should be enough. But if you want more you can always pay more for it.

I'll be selling what Receptor creators sell - a noiseless and powerfull specialised PC. A musical PC. It can be embeded into a midi keyboard, with connectors for external 20 inch touchscreen monitor. No more tiny displays, no more fear to crack this rare display, because you can always buy new LCD monitor everywhere. And no more hard-coded patches..

As to fundamental difference - iron synths have arghoritms "hard coded" in its PCBs, ICs, ets. Whereas soft synths realise the same alghoritm sequentally. According to theory of relativity there's no such thing like a simultaneousity, everything is sequental Wink
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, looking on the hardware side, try to build a custom case pc with no fans but the option for a powerful CPU, multiple drives, 8GB RAM or more, and make it look slick. Add a controller of your choice. When I looked into this, just the PC part ran close to a thousand. You could probably get some parts for less, especially if you skimp on the specs, but you still have to assemble them and make a profit, offer warranty and support, etc.
Not to mention make it an attractive design, not just to look at but ergonomically as well.

I really do appreciate this kind of route and I use this setup in the studio daily - meaning a custom pc with softsynths - but there's a reason the Receptor and the Miko and Neko and Groove XR etc. etc. haven't taken over the live market.
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Aziz1008
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Location: Russia, Moscow

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Miko, Neko - that's exactly what I was after! Thanks for sharing. So I can relax and not create them myself) It's a pity that it is discontinued.. Why they did not take over the market? Don't know, may be they resembled PC too much? Or were not modular and upgradable for the end user. Or poor shortcut support - we love synths for its ease of use, a single button operation. Anyway, each musician should make his own violin, and PC is the only one flexible enough for that.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/keyboards-midi/open-labs-miko-qc6



Last edited by Aziz1008 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Aziz1008
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Location: Russia, Moscow

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And maybe, there's another reason. We love hardware for.. its limitations! PC is too unlimited, too frustrating and complex, distracting from music itself. I noticed it long time ago, that a mere piano, sometimes is more productive in musical sence than all those hameleon like synth having all imaginable timbres and no paticular of its own. There's a philosophical principle "The Form determines the Content". We like synths because they have distinct functional forms, due to its limitations. While PC is too amorphous in sound and possibilities. It is a universal machine, while synth is a specialised music machine. More devoted/dedicated to music, just like a piano - you cannot read books with it))
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Aziz1008
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Joined: 06 Apr 2015
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Location: Russia, Moscow

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here's the video of this ideal synth/workstation:
https://youtu.be/4elEfZFoVPo
And reason why they had to close:
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/08/01/open-labs-heads-to-the-auction-block-did-windows-kill-the-company/
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Windows was the problem, but like I indicated before, the price sure was. But that is just what it costs to bring something like that to the market. Korg's Oasys was at a similar price point. It's pretty amazing they managed to make Kronos so much cheaper. When you're used to build your own PC (as I am too) it seems like you could just slap in some parts and build great equipment on the cheap. But you actually have to get a lot of custom stuff, provide support, a software platform, there will be huuuuge stability issues especially if you're constantly changing hardware and keep trying to support everything. It's just an expensive venture to do commercially.

You try building something like a Kronos with an 88 key controller with lots of buttons and sliders, a touchscreen, an OS that makes sense and is very stable, something like 20GB of samples, 9 different engines including organ modeling and VAs, something like 100 different insert effects, 4000 presets, 4 audio ins and 8 outs, midi I/O and so on and soforth. If you can do it any cheaper and have it work as well I'd be amazed. Especially if you make it modular. I wouldn't even need a lot of software cause I already have a lot. Just a hosting program that works as well as Kronos OS.
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Aziz1008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have to be dreamers for Dream to come true.. Let's summarise only hardware costs:

1. Core i7 CPU - 339$
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/intel-core-i7-processor

2. Motheboard - 67$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Intel-P55-ATX-LGA1156-for-Intel-Core-i3-i5-i7-Computer-Motherboard-/261832957254?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf675dd46

3. RAM 16 GB - 112$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-SKILL-Ripjaws-X-Series-8GB-240-Pin-DDR3-SDRAM-DDR3-1333-PC3-10666-Desktop-Me-/301380764532

============== 518 $ =====================

Or ready to use motherboard with cpu and ram - 639$

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIGABYTE-GA-Z97-D3H-Motherboard-Intel-Core-i7-Processor-i7-4790-16G-Combo-Set-/281634808496

=======================================

4. Noiseless Power source - 70$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kingwin-Stryker-fanless-500W-modular-power-supply-unit-80-Platinum-certified-/291424987492

5. Passive CPU cooler - 20$

http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-snk-p0046p~7SUP91Y1.htm
http://www.quietpc.com/orochi
http://www.pcgamer.com/passive-cooling-for-core-i7s/

6. HDD - 2 TB sata - 55$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WD2003FYPS-Western-Digital-Internal-Hard-Drive-2TB-7200-RPM-64MB-Cache-/351216133471

7. Korg Taktile as a MIDI controller to use its keys, buttons, knobs and faders - 150$

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KORG-TAKTILE-49-49-KEY-USB-MIDI-CONTROLLER-KEYBOARD-W-PADS-SLIDERS-TOUCHPAD-/261839467235

8. LCD monitor with touchscreen - Asus vt207n - 224$

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-VT207N-19-5-Wide-5ms-1600x900-VGA-DVI-D-Touchscreen-LED-Monitor-Black-/351144644482

9. 24-bit Hi-Fi Audiointerface - 249$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steinberg-UR44-6-x-4-USB-2-0-Audio-Interface-4x-D-PREs-24-bit-192-kHz-MIDI-/361265383723?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541d18492b

============ Sum: 1286 $ ======================

10. ABS plastik body to make it lightweght - ?$$

--------------- Software -----------------------

1. OS - Windows or Linux
2. Software DAWs
3. Software instruments
4. Sample libraries

-------------------------------------------------

So hardware makes something around 1500$. Compare with 6000$ of Open Labs or Receptor's 3000$..
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Aziz1008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here's another Ipad-based solution, much cheaper:

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SanderXpander
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aziz1008 wrote:
We have to be dreamers for Dream to come true.. Let's summarise only hardware costs:

1. Core i7 CPU - 339$
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/intel-core-i7-processor

2. Motheboard - 67$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Intel-P55-ATX-LGA1156-for-Intel-Core-i3-i5-i7-Computer-Motherboard-/261832957254?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf675dd46

3. RAM 16 GB - 112$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-SKILL-Ripjaws-X-Series-8GB-240-Pin-DDR3-SDRAM-DDR3-1333-PC3-10666-Desktop-Me-/301380764532

============== 518 $ =====================

Or ready to use motherboard with cpu and ram - 639$

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIGABYTE-GA-Z97-D3H-Motherboard-Intel-Core-i7-Processor-i7-4790-16G-Combo-Set-/281634808496

=======================================

4. Noiseless Power source - 70$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kingwin-Stryker-fanless-500W-modular-power-supply-unit-80-Platinum-certified-/291424987492

5. Passive CPU cooler - 20$

http://www.provantage.com/supermicro-snk-p0046p~7SUP91Y1.htm
http://www.quietpc.com/orochi
http://www.pcgamer.com/passive-cooling-for-core-i7s/

6. HDD - 2 TB sata - 55$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WD2003FYPS-Western-Digital-Internal-Hard-Drive-2TB-7200-RPM-64MB-Cache-/351216133471

7. Korg Taktile as a MIDI controller to use its keys, buttons, knobs and faders - 150$

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KORG-TAKTILE-49-49-KEY-USB-MIDI-CONTROLLER-KEYBOARD-W-PADS-SLIDERS-TOUCHPAD-/261839467235

8. LCD monitor with touchscreen - Asus vt207n - 224$

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-VT207N-19-5-Wide-5ms-1600x900-VGA-DVI-D-Touchscreen-LED-Monitor-Black-/351144644482

9. 24-bit Hi-Fi Audiointerface - 249$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steinberg-UR44-6-x-4-USB-2-0-Audio-Interface-4x-D-PREs-24-bit-192-kHz-MIDI-/361265383723?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541d18492b

============ Sum: 1286 $ ======================

10. ABS plastik body to make it lightweght - ?$$

--------------- Software -----------------------

1. OS - Windows or Linux
2. Software DAWs
3. Software instruments
4. Sample libraries

-------------------------------------------------

So hardware makes something around 1500$. Compare with 6000$ of Open Labs or Receptor's 3000$..

You haven't made it look good, nor put it together, nor made it into a synth in any way. I would also question your choice of controller and audio interface but I guess that does fit the "modular" idea. I would be careful using regular mobos, generally you need "installation" or industrial spec mobos if you're planning to move the device a lot. I would also think SSDs are more reliable (not to mention quicker, which is why the Kronos uses one) although a laptop HDD might also do well.

But basically what you have is a PC with a USB audio interface and a separate USB controller and touch screen. That would be ok for studio use but also kinda pointless as this is already what people have in their studio. Let's assume you mount this all into a case you designed and that is user modifiable with different audio interfaces, mobos, hard drives and controller keyboards, what would that cost? Every order will be basically custom made because the point of the system is modularity. Now you have to get it distributed all over the world, set up a support network and market it.
And do administration, pay taxes on everything and make a profit.

Don't get me wrong, I really do like this approach IN GENERAL and I do it in the studio. I just don't think a universal solution will do well in the live environment.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aziz1008 wrote:
And here's another Ipad-based solution, much cheaper:


Yeah, Akai actually moved to regular PCs with the Advance Pro which allows for easy interfacing with VSTs. Very promising. The iPad based ones are pretty nifty although the keyboard is quite bad and obviously the iPad is very limited. If tablet PCs continue to grow in power this could be a really nice system in the future, except of course that it wouldn't be modular.
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Aziz1008
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Location: Russia, Moscow

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what if we sell it as half-ready modules for musicians to assemble for themselves? That would reduce costs. Again one head is not sufficient here. There should be a group of enthusiastic people for this project to become international. While I can assemble the synth prototype for myself, someone will not, so if there will be supporters, then there'll be something for a global market.

You are right with SSD, I forgot the shocks!) But when HDD is parked then it can endure shocks, and the volume/price ratio are superior.
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