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Diminished SST performance still unresolved in 3.03
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chini
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: My custom patches worked fine in OS2! Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
chini wrote:
...OK! I appreciate that the new Kronos has a more powerful cpu to cope better with the increased facilities that OS3 brought but I wish Korg had warned original Kronos owners that upgrading to OS3 might yield a poorer performance in regard to SST. This is the precise problem I am now faced with.


I understand. The thing is, the only cases I've seen which demonstrate this involve extremely heavily layered sounds in which each note played makes very heavy demands of the system. There may be a few factory Combis which fall into this category (I'm not sure), but the vast majority of them do not - the examples I've seen have been user-created Combis - and so the issue simply wasn't noticed.

I hope that something can be done to improve this, but as usual I can make no guarantees.


Hi Dan, yes! mine are all painstakingly programmed custom combies often using up all timbres, not necessarily layered sounds but definitely intricately zoned sometimes using up to 4 instances of KARMA and the drum track. The fact is my patches were all changing perfectly between each other re SST in OS2 ! hence my frustration at being stranded now in OS3. I am an intensive user of the Kronos and as such I suspect that my particular custom patches are just a little too complicated for OS3 to handle considering the added functions that even though I have them switched off still seem to diminish the SST performance.

I never use the sympathetic res or timbre meters and always have RAM in optimise mode. My RAM is normally always nearly full once I have loaded my customed setup. I am just wondering if there is anything I can possibly do to reduce the pressure on the processor apart from change my combie set ups which is a definite no! no!...?
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: My custom patches worked fine in OS2! Reply with quote

Hi Chini,

chini wrote:


Hi Dan, yes! mine are all painstakingly programmed custom combies often using up all timbres, not necessarily layered sounds


My guess is that playing a single key on the keyboard is triggering a whole bunch of notes internally, one way or another (layers would be the usual way, including unison voices, but KARMA could also do this) - perhaps in conjunction with heavy effects or EXi Fixed Resource use.

chini wrote:
but definitely intricately zoned sometimes using up to 4 instances of KARMA and the drum track. The fact is my patches were all changing perfectly between each other re SST in OS2 ! hence my frustration at being stranded now in OS3.


If you have your sounds saved in version 2 format, you could always downgrade.

chini wrote:
I am just wondering if there is anything I can possibly do to reduce the pressure on the processor apart from change my combie set ups which is a definite no! no!...?


Refining sounds to minimize voice usage is something that Korg sound designers always do before release. It's quite possible that you would be able to do so as well.

For instance, you could try the following:

* Make sure that all unused Combi timbres are set to Programs which use only AL-1 or HD-1 Patches. Other EXi use some amount of fixed resources, which will diminish polyphony.

* Remove any unused effects.

* If layered polyphonic sounds are using Unison voices, consider using a chorus effect instead.

* Avoid using multiple CX-3 or EP-1 sounds, since these use significant amounts of fixed EXi resources.

When I tested some user sounds which were reported as having problems in version 3, I found that they had the same problems in version 2 - it was just a little more difficult to make it happen there. Optimizing sounds is always useful!
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chini
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: My custom patches worked fine in OS2! Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:

When I tested some user sounds which were reported as having problems in version 3, I found that they had the same problems in version 2 - it was just a little more difficult to make it happen there. Optimizing sounds is always useful!


I literally had no issues ever with OS2. Unfortunately I have done a lot of work in OS3 if only because I was assured by a Korg techy in the UK that the issue will be resolved.

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one but may well in the end resculpture OS3 combies as best I can in OS2. It's such a shame there's no way to import at lest all the parameters used in both versions only so that OS3 patches could be downpassed to OS2! It means I will have to start from scratch.

Here are the original reference files I made everyone alert to in my original post on this subject back in december for your reference. I am physically playing all the chords here and you can clearly hear how the drum track I trigger in the combie I change to cuts out! (as well as the reverb tails from the previous combie)...

https://soundcloud.com/henry-frampton
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: My custom patches worked fine in OS2! Reply with quote

Nice music. I don't know what I'm listening to, though; I can't tell what you're doing. Do the drums cut out as soon as you change the Combination, before you play any new notes?
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chini
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: My custom patches worked fine in OS2! Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
Nice music. I don't know what I'm listening to, though; I can't tell what you're doing. Do the drums cut out as soon as you change the Combination, before you play any new notes?


No! ... each version is me playing one combie (with its own drum track) then patch changing at the end of the section (break) and then triggering the drum track in the combie I have patch changed to so the drum track should normally continue but in OS3 it invariably cuts out!. I'm sorry but for some reason I am having problems listening to soundcloud at my end from my MacBook today! so I cant remember if the "OS3" samples here just show the obvious failure in SST with the tails of sounds getting cut off between the 2 sections of music with the drum tracks triggeing OK... As I have said what happens a lot is that the new drum track that is triggered in the second section (the combie that has been patch changed 2 would play only for a split second then cut out completely along with the dieing notes/rev tails from the previous patch...

Sorry! to be clear their are 2 separate drum tracks. The first one is before the break, then after the patch change the new double rhythm 6/8 is triggered within the second patch.

In the OS2 example you can here how there are no glitches or tails cut off between the 2 combies (nor indeed does the drum track triggered at the start of the second section in the second combie ever cut out!)

I only use these versions of the combies for this particular song when I am performing solo: when I'm with the group my drummer plays live Roland V-drums instead. However the same combie change even without the drums cuts the tails off in OS3 !
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chini
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:51 pm    Post subject: drums cut off in "os3 sample cut off" example Reply with quote

Just changed browsers to listen to my soundcloud page!..

Yes the 3rd sample shows the drums clearly cutting out having just triggered them with a single note on the Kronos keyboard after I have patch changed!
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: drums cut off in "os3 sample cut off" example Reply with quote

chini wrote:
Just changed browsers to listen to my soundcloud page!..

Yes the 3rd sample shows the drums clearly cutting out having just triggered them with a single note on the Kronos keyboard after I have patch changed!


I like your music, nicely done.

I can hear and see the ' 1/2 ' second (08 to 09) in real time on OS3 where the drums cut out instead of a nice fade out. since you are a perfectionist, I can see where that is frustrating on OS3.

is this music part 2 specific combis, 1 after another in set list ? if so, it might be the first combi that is the devil with the drum cut off.

This does not sound like a difficult part to play. I still think you should share the 2 combis and have someone else mess with it in SST.
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chini
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 8:01 pm    Post subject: more detail... Reply with quote

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your muscial compliment!

To be clear. All 3 of these samples feature 2 combies played and yes they display a patch changed within a setlist. The first section (6/4 time) you hear (faded in) is being played on the first combie: I'm playing the chords along with its pre triggered drum track. Because I use a Roland A-50 to patch change my Kronos I am able to hold the sustain pedal, hit the patch change from the A-50 then release the sustain pedal to actually activate that patch change to change the Kronos combie when I like. (The neat live trick with the Roland is that any patch change you make only gets sent out if there are no keys or sustained notes being held) The drum track playing in the first combie I therefore cut off naturally on the down beat with the release of the sustain pedal (having lifted my hands off the keys yet still delaying the patch change till where I really want it to occur within the bar, at which point on releasing the sustain pedal that combies drum track stops along with the chords and in OS2 all reverb tails both from the drum track and any sound envelope releases die out naturally as I count from the down beat: "1, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3..." and then continue to play in the second combie that I have patch changed to triggering the second section of the song (which is in fact an instrumental break). What I actually play on the keyboard is a staggered triad in a preprogrammed zone towards the top of the keyboard, the 5th of which triggers the instrumentals 6/8 drum track on the natural downbeat after the break. With all respect this is not the arrangement of a "perfectionist" but a simple change between sections in a song. Yes! Both combies are completely custom made patches from scratch as are all of my patches on the Kronos.

I hope this makes things a little clearer! Golly it would be so much easier to play it live to you and you would see instantly!
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EvilDragon
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So make a video, put it on YouTube?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:10 am    Post subject: Re: more detail... Reply with quote

chini wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for your muscial compliment!

To be clear. All 3 of these samples feature 2 combies played and yes they display a patch changed within a setlist. The first section (6/4 time) you hear (faded in) is being played on the first combie: I'm playing the chords along with its pre triggered drum track. Because I use a Roland A-50 to patch change my Kronos I am able to hold the sustain pedal, hit the patch change from the A-50 then release the sustain pedal to actually activate that patch change to change the Kronos combie when I like. (The neat live trick with the Roland is that any patch change you make only gets sent out if there are no keys or sustained notes being held) The drum track playing in the first combie I therefore cut off naturally on the down beat with the release of the sustain pedal (having lifted my hands off the keys yet still delaying the patch change till where I really want it to occur within the bar, at which point on releasing the sustain pedal that combies drum track stops along with the chords and in OS2 all reverb tails both from the drum track and any sound envelope releases die out naturally as I count from the down beat: "1, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3..." and then continue to play in the second combie that I have patch changed to triggering the second section of the song (which is in fact an instrumental break). What I actually play on the keyboard is a staggered triad in a preprogrammed zone towards the top of the keyboard, the 5th of which triggers the instrumentals 6/8 drum track on the natural downbeat after the break. With all respect this is not the arrangement of a "perfectionist" but a simple change between sections in a song. Yes! Both combies are completely custom made patches from scratch as are all of my patches on the Kronos.

I hope this makes things a little clearer! Golly it would be so much easier to play it live to you and you would see instantly!


I use to have the A50. a fabulous midi controller.

something tells me you are doubling the need for polyphony by keeping your sustain pedal down when changing or progressing thru your custom combis.
this is just a wild guess. are the note stealing polyphony performance meters going crazy ?

how much ram is loaded on your Kronos ?
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happens if you change the sounds directly from the KRONOS front panel, instead of from the Roland controller?
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chini
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:12 am    Post subject: midi wiring never changed Reply with quote

danatkorg wrote:
What happens if you change the sounds directly from the KRONOS front panel, instead of from the Roland controller?


Makes no difference!.... and as far as "doubling" any midi info is concerned as GregC suggests, this is not happening as I have all my pedals only ever connected to the A50 which relays any midi to the Kronos via one of its four available midi channels that the A-50 is capable of sending simultaneously out on. In any case my midi cabling has always been the same so logically the fault must be with OS3.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: more detail... Reply with quote

chini wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for your muscial compliment!


I want to also comment on how nice that tune is you are playing. Do you have it available to purchase, on an album or as a single?
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Gaston
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reluctant to update to 3.0 because I was performing a lot, figured I'd do it when things slowed down and I had some time just in case there were issues. After reading this thread I'm kind of glad I didn't update. Has this issue been resolved yet?
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chini
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:52 pm    Post subject: News! Reply with quote

Gaston wrote:
I was reluctant to update to 3.0 because I was performing a lot, figured I'd do it when things slowed down and I had some time just in case there were issues. After reading this thread I'm kind of glad I didn't update. Has this issue been resolved yet?


Coincidentally I have just been in touch again with my original contact at Korg and although the discussion is still ongoing between us what I can tell you is that they are still looking into it. He assured me it effects only the original Kronos however...

...just to clarify: the problem is only noticeable among users who really do fill up their combies with custom timbres and effects towards max capacity then patch change between them.

For me it has meant curtailing some of my custom combies (I only ever use custom combies) enough till the patch change runs like it used to in OS2. I have to adjust both the patch I am playing and the one I wish to patch change to. I have actually managed to adapt a few of my combies to avoid the problem as I found I had a few FX blocks open in some of them that were not being used and hence eating up unnecessary processing power. However there are some which simply can not be lightened without spoiling the desired sonic pallet to stop the problem from occurring. By the way I was only ever really interested in the new set list features that OS3 brought in; I never use the timbre meter feature nor string res (at least in my heavy combies!)

The point is Korg brought us new features in OS3 which at the moment seem to tax the processor a little more in original Kronos machines (mine is an original K upgraded to X spec). However I have not had the opportunity to test my combies in a Kronos 2. I mention this because I have heard there may be a faster processor in the K2 which would, theoretically, logically mean the K2's chipset was updated to properly cope with the added features brought in with OS3.

With heavily programmed combies, i.e. more than 8FX blocks active, 4 Karma engines active and 10+ timbres active the SST and polyphony can be effected, depending on how many notes you are playing or holding before the patch change takes place. As I have documented elsewhere on this forum I even have a patch whos drum track stops playing that I have triggered within the patch I have just patch changed to! Lighter K users are unlikely to come across the anomaly although there is a fairly noticeable slower screen draw evident generally since OS3.

One welcome amendment in the recent OS3.03 update was the elimination of the "All Sounds Off" message that Korg decided to implement in OS3 (!) This was driving me a little nuts as it would cut off any long envelopes on my external synths! I did in fact discover a way of avoiding this before they reverted it in oS3.03! At first some thought that this amendment in OS3.03 would relieve the main issue I have here but sadly not!

I think Korg will either solve the issue directly with an update or if this is not possible they may create a migration process for those like myself who decided to soldier on in OS3 in good faith but now wish to be able to bring their data back to OS2 where the anomaly can not exist! Currently any data re-programmed in OS3 will not play in OS2!

Hope this makes sense!

I adore my Kronos and I feel blessed that such an instrument exists at this stage in my career! There are other things that I would like to have seen added to an already wonderful instrument, such as being able to delay program change messages to external synths until note off/sustain off (I use my old Roland A50 for this!). Sometimes one has to realise that a limitation of an instrument can actually be a blessing in disguise and indeed lead to an even better way of organising a sonic task! So if Korg do not manage to resolve this issue I shan't complain but continue to evolve that part of my sound stage with the tools and immense power the Kronos certainly does have already!
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