Sequencer upgrade - session view useful?

[domc]

While we wait for the next OS, I was toying around with live 6 and the OASYS last night and I suddenly thought how useful the OASYS touch screen would be in providing a live type session sequencing ability.

You could have a matrix of the 16 midi parts (with audio to come at a later date) by a number of rows, and you could link each matrix square to a pattern. A master column (like in live) could start multiple patterns playing simultaneously, and individual patterns could be switched on and off using the touch screen (either in real time or quantised). A touch of a new row on the master column would simultaneously stop the current rows patterns playing and start the new row. These could then be recorded directly to the sequencer, or this ability used live.

This would be an awesome addition to the current sequencing / pattern playback abilities and would definitely take the workstation sequencing into this century. Given that the patterns have already been implemented, I'd have thought that a midi only implementation should be possible [fairly easily] as all we're talking about is a matrix systems to better control the starting and stopping of patterns without having to use the keys. The icing on the cake would be extending this to audio, which would take more brain surgery - but is I feel where a workstartion sequencer should be going.

For me at least this would be a better compositional / performance tool, than implementing piano roll type editing (which I'd obviously love but while easing editing doesn't really add on the compositional / performance front).


What do others think?

Dan, Jerry, have there been any thoughts along this line.

Cheers, Domc

[Daz]

Yes please ... this kind of change would be most welcome.

Daz.

[tcornishmn]

I agree - that would be really cool to have a matrix-style sequencer as you describe. I disagree that the piano-roll wouldn't be terribly useful - I think that could be fairly well implemented, especially if Korg enables USB mouse support.

VGA resolution doesn't seem that big in today's world of multiple hi-res displays (which I also enjoy on my main PC), but Korg has already demonstrated that they can do a lot on the Oasys screen.

For an example of how the mouse could work, the Yamaha AW4416 multitrack recorder has a QVGA screen - 1/4 the size of the Oasys' and it is actually pretty helpful for getting around.

[thekeymaster]

I voted yes.

Things is though the more I think about it the more I feel we are less likely to see a major upgrade to the sequencer.I get the impression its not a priority.

From how Korg described the system when it first hit the market I feel they were more talking about its synth engines,fx and samples etc etc,not updating the entire seq implementation and I think its that what we wish for.

I keep saying it but Korg have an opportunity to show the rest how to move a seq application on a workstation up to the next level but I wont hold my breath.

I hope I'm wrong but I feel the release of the M3 still using the same style interface and keeping nearly all the same features apart from increasd ppq does'nt bode well for me.

[JD]

That's a yes...

Different views are hughly appreciated and depending on the situation I'm in and the state of the song I use diefferent views with a computer sequencer. I would love to be able to do more idea sketching on the "O" since it is a very inspiring instrument.

Korg is of course well aware of our wishes for sequencer improvements and I'm 100% sure it is going to happen...although probably not with the next OS update...

Cheers,

Jens

[domc]

I voted yes.

Things is though the more I think about it the more I feel we are less likely to see a major upgrade to the sequencer.I get the impression its not a priority.

From how Korg described the system when it first hit the market I feel they were more talking about its synth engines,fx and samples etc etc,not updating the entire seq implementation and I think its that what we wish for.

I keep saying it but Korg have an opportunity to show the rest how to move a seq application on a workstation up to the next level but I wont hold my breath.

I hope I'm wrong but I feel the release of the M3 still using the same style interface and keeping nearly all the same features apart from increasd ppq does'nt bode well for me.

Part of me thinks this as well;


however, the more I thought about it last night, the more I thought actually most of the hard work's been done in implementing the patterns. These can already be independently started, of different lengths, set to start in real time, or according to a quantisation setting - all we're really talking about is how to control them starting and stopping.

At present the starting and stopping is via a keyboard and while this has good uses it has some disadvantages;
- the more you set up, the less space you have to play the keyboard in real time (although I did find a way around this by halving the tracks)
- there's no way to keep track of which patterns are playing; you have to remember which keys have been pressed
- there's no easy way of simultaneously moving from several playing patterns to several more patterns (without being able to stretch your fingers to hit all the desired keys at the same time)

The Live 5/6 session view layout deals with all these disadvantages and their implementation of pattern play is far more intuitive; additionally you can easily set up song structures such as verses, choruses, the patterns for which can be all started with a click on the master column.

So I think the hard part (and I'm guessing here as I'm sure the programing is harder than I imagine) in getting patterns to play is done, just getting a matrix to start, stop the patterns should be fairly easy.

Combine that with the OASYS touchscreen and you bypass the main disadvantage of Live 5/6 (the need to either use a mouse to start patterns playing or assign midi controllers to each pattern).

Now obviously I'd love it for audio as well to make the sequencer world class like the instruments, but even just on the midi instruments, it would make a huge impact on workflow very quickly.

How about it Korg?

[dxmusic]

I believe that Live can be triggered from the O, using CC# so why would you need it on the keyboard. The patterns can be triggered from the keyboard and routed to the audio inputs or from midi from live, just make the live the slave and the O the master. You can then record your tracks in the keyboard sequencer. as audio or midi.

[Mag66]

Things is though the more I think about it the more I feel we are less likely to see a major upgrade to the sequencer.I get the impression its not a priority.

I'm not so certain that is the case. The sequencer section of the Oasys has come under a lot of fire from many people, both owners and potential owners and I would hope that Korg is listening to these comments and acting upon them, as the somewhat negative aspects of the sequencer's implementation have been discussed quite frequently, throughout the lifetime of the Oasys.

I have no inside knowledge as to Korg's plans but I sense that Korg may well be working on a makeover for the sequencer. It may be it's just the addition of the que list (as a starter at least) but it may also be a completely new sequencer interface altogether. I hope that is the case, at least in the long term if not the short term.

The other possibility is an Oasys specific software sequencer interface with a PC/Mac but I would hope that they are working on an intergrated solution rather than an external one.

(Sorry I have not been around much recently.... Ill health and trying to finish off my new album while feeling like crap.. has drastically cut down on my free time. Starting to feel much better now though, thankfully!)

[Mike Conway]

(Sorry I have not been around much recently.... Ill health and trying to finish off my new album while feeling like crap.. has drastically cut down on my free time. Starting to feel much better now though, thankfully!)

I was wondering where you went off to. Welcome back!


I also agree that, at the very least, basic enhancements and a Cue List will be made available. Too many have spoke out about it.

I'm not looking for the overhaul that some want. There's already a nice display. If Korg can scroll (during Play/Record) that screen on the Track Edit page and add the Cue List, percentage Velocity and Gate functions, I would be happy.

[domc]

I believe that Live can be triggered from the O, using CC# so why would you need it on the keyboard.

That is one way of doing it - the disadvantages for me of this approach are:
- the need to set up cc messages for each pattern and then remember the set up especially when this set up maybe different per song
- the need to use a computer at all; the more I use the Oasys the more I like being able to work with everything there and not having to switch on the computer, link up etc. etc.
An Oasys session view would mean immediate control at your fingertips where it was obvious which patterns you were starting / stopping. Each to their own, but for me that would be much better from a workflow point of view than setting up for the O to control live.

The other possibility is an Oasys specific software sequencer interface with a PC/Mac but I would hope that they are working on an intergrated solution rather than an external one.

(Sorry I have not been around much recently.... Ill health and trying to finish off my new album while feeling like crap.. has drastically cut down on my free time. Starting to feel much better now though, thankfully!)

Welcome back and hope you're feeling better mag66. I'm with you - while at first I was a proponent of the external link up (and I still think it would be a great addition as per the M3), I now enjoy the benefits of working just with the O and would prefer that the enhancements were internal first, followed by external.

I'm not looking for the overhaul that some want. There's already a nice display. If Korg can scroll (during Play/Record) that screen on the Track Edit page and add the Cue List, percentage Velocity and Gate functions, I would be happy.!)

Mike I've no dispute on the display - and your suggestions would be v.welcome. I guess I come from the standpoint that the great touchscreen could be used even more, and the sequencer enhanced considerably on this machine. I have sided with you in the past on various posts that actually when you get into it, the sequencer does most of the things you want from a sequencer on a rock solid basis. However there are a number of conceptual advancements that would take the internal sequencer closer to the software ones and way ahead of the hardware competition. This would be good for current Oasys sales, but also useful for future Korg products derived from the Oasys.

I hear the argument - how can a workstation sequencer compete with the years of R&D that have gone into the development of cubase/live. While there is an element true here, I don't subscibe fully to this view:
- The software sequencers have to waste a huge amount of time writing code for several machines (PC, and then mac, and then dual core PC ,and then mac intel); and then to write code to try and link all these things up as easily as possible with numerous types of hardware keyboards/controllers; and then write code to make the sequencer work with lots of different VST standards; [and then prob lots of other things of which I'm not aware which you wouldn't have to do for an Oasys implementation]
- 50-90% of the developments are things that are not that useful or applicable to working on the oasys. If you look at the developments from cubase 3 to 4 and live 5 to 6, there has been very little added in terms of core sequencing abilities. It's all about refinements, workflow, video.
- the number of genuine features I miss about my software sequencers when using the big O is not that large.

So I don't think you have to do that many things to take the big O sequencer into the 21st century; it's never going to replicate all the features of cubase/live, but the core sequencing facilities could be brought more on a par with massive workflow benefits to its users - this should also lead to increased Oasys sales/buzz associated with a genuine step advance in workstation sequencing. The brilliant touchscreen should be a huge advantage as unlike cubase, live, logic with some clever thinking you could program some workflow enhancements/features that the software guys just can't ever mimic.

The things I view as genuine advancements in sequencer technology which I miss on the Oasys prob are:
- session view (live 5 or 6)
- ease of importing .mid files, .wav .mp3 files (live 5 or 6)
- ease of timestretching audio manipulation of clips (live 5 or 6)
- piano roll editing of musical notes (cubase or live)
- visual editing of CC/automation parameters (cubase or live)
- visual display of channel output meters pre and post effects (cubase or live)
- and lastly more midi tracks
I mean that list is not that long and would meaningfully move the bar in terms of workstation sequencing (although I wouldn't want to take anything away from the huge amount of programming needed to actually implement all of this).


Anyway I've droned on enough

Cheers, Domc

[Mike Conway]

However there are a number of conceptual advancements that would take the internal sequencer closer to the software ones and way ahead of the hardware competition. This would be good for current Oasys sales, but also useful for future Korg products derived from the Oasys.

I'm certainly all for that and would be happily surprised if it came to fruition. Me saying that I'm not looking for an overhaul doesn't mean I wouldn't welcome it. At the very least, adding even some of the functions that you and I mentioned would be a big help, even if Korg stays with the existing format.

[Derm]

I would welcome any improvement but I think the absolute minimum would be a cue list implementation. There are, as has been pointed out, many different opportunities and ways of vastly improving the sequencer. Personally, I have little interest in any external solution. It goes against my main reason for buying an Oasys, and I am sure that there are others who feel the same. Either way, my feeling is that Korg have already made their decisions and we will only know what they are when 1.5 or V2 is released.

[Sharp]

I have little interest in any external solution. It goes against my main reason for buying an Oasys, and I am sure that there are others who feel the same.

You can count me in on that one too.

I would have NO interest whatsoever in anything external as that would completely defeat the purpose of the OASYS.

It is a Workstation. Not a Rompler / Synth.

I would also gladly pay a few hundred euro for a greatly enhanced sequencer.

Regards.
Sharp.

[radside]

[quote]Quote:
I have little interest in any external solution. It goes against my main reason for buying an Oasys, and I am sure that there are others who feel the same.


You can count me in on that one too.

I would have NO interest whatsoever in anything external as that would completely defeat the purpose of the OASYS.

It is a Workstation. Not a Rompler / Synth.

I would also gladly pay a few hundred euro for a greatly enhanced sequencer. [/quote]


Count me in too. My wish is to do practically everything I need to do inside the Oasys. Similarly to the session view, I also favor pattern based compositions but my desire is to have multi-timbral/channel midi patterns that can be triggered from either the pads or keys. These multitimbral/channel patterns should also be capable of being "put to track" as currently implemented in the single midi track/channel patterns.

Additionally, some sort of matrix/session view that would provide which pattern is assigned to each pad/key/grid cell, would be useful, much more so, if the patterns cold also be triggered from the matrix, with individually configured looping/one shot options.

Rick

[Mike Conway]

I would have NO interest whatsoever in anything external as that would completely defeat the purpose of the OASYS.

Same here, Sharp. For the past year, I have only used the OASYS' sequencer. I don't use a computer for any composing - I NEVER HAVE (even though I own Sonar 4). All my songs have been made with hardware sequencers.

Since you are coming from the Triton Studio, you will be missing the Cue List (which I think is coming to the O), but you will find that the O sequecer can easily record volume ramps and synth alterations that weren't possible on the Studio. Grab a fader or pan pot and you can record the movement. Same with the KARMA and Tone Adjust modes.

In those ways, the O sequencer is far beyond the Triton line and makes a nice automated mixer and sound shaping tool. I used to use the sequencer on my Triton Classic and Extreme. Similar features, but they weren't nearly as fun.


*raises glass*

Here's to some updated features to make this hardware sing!