How would you go about getting rhythm guitar style strumming effects using these great sounding STR-1 guitars we have, via MIDI/programming ? Here is a snippet of what I am talking about; just plugged my guitar into the O and played something random, nothing fancy ... for reasons I'll explain later.
http://daz.korgforums.com/mp3/ogtr.mp3
Daz.
STR-1 rhythm guitar strumming ?
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
No takers 
Okay, I was just messing as I was a little giddy ...
I did just plug my guitar into the Oasys as I said, except it was a Godin with Synth Access and this is a STR-1 Program being played using that I just got this wonderful instrument and was having so much fun. It's an interesting playing experience. It's just like playing the guitar and at the same time radically different. It was my first time playing a MIDI'fied guitar and I really had to see how the great STR-1 sounds would work with it.
I would recommend a Godin over the Roland pickup solution (including the Roland Ready Fender with pre-installed GK2A), I am very impressed with it indeed, the tracking is fast and accurate. It's also a beautiful "straight" electric guitar.
Godin Guitars with Synth Access -> http://www.godinguitars.com/godingman.htm
Daz.
Okay, I was just messing as I was a little giddy ...
I did just plug my guitar into the Oasys as I said, except it was a Godin with Synth Access and this is a STR-1 Program being played using that
I just got this wonderful instrument and was having so much fun. It's an interesting playing experience. It's just like playing the guitar and at the same time radically different. It was my first time playing a MIDI'fied guitar and I really had to see how the great STR-1 sounds would work with it.I would recommend a Godin over the Roland pickup solution (including the Roland Ready Fender with pre-installed GK2A), I am very impressed with it indeed, the tracking is fast and accurate. It's also a beautiful "straight" electric guitar.
Godin Guitars with Synth Access -> http://www.godinguitars.com/godingman.htm
Daz.
Daz,Daz wrote:No takers
Okay, I was just messing as I was a little giddy ...
I did just plug my guitar into the Oasys as I said, except it was a Godin with Synth Access and this is a STR-1 Program being played using that
I would recommend a Godin over the Roland pickup solution (including the Roland Ready Fender with pre-installed GK2A), I am very impressed with it indeed, the tracking is fast and accurate. It's also a beautiful "straight" electric guitar.
Godin Guitars with Synth Access -> http://www.godinguitars.com/godingman.htm
Daz.
Thanks for the "heads up" on this (and the Godin).
My 'studio-in-the-woods' is on the edge of a major "Snow Bird" nesting ground (Central Florida
), and over the past few years, many, MANY, old (-er) pro, semi-pro and advanced amateur musicians have "stopped by" and we have really enjoyed the music and hospitality (goes both ways).Many were "string picker-bowers" (with instruments) and, of course, some were "key pokers" or "key and button (screen/pad/slider)" players (like me. . . Leah actually plays 2 handed "black 'n whites).
When the "pickers" have a MIDI pickup, we really have fun and sharing.
Yes, the STR-1 really impresses (REALLY!!). Sample and chord playing is fun for them as well.
I have recommended to many clients, students, and guests that a MIDI pickup could be used to "write" MIDI parts other than guitar.
Believe it or not, the "pickers" who play mostly from "tabs" have an easier time translating their playing to other instruments. (Less "habitual thinking" I suppose.)
Keyboard players (music readers) can use a "Guitar Tab" plug-in, available in some DAWs to write sort-of "normal sounding" guitar and bass licks.
It is something that I must look into more closely (time, time, time) to REALLY use the STR-1 better (and other Physical Modeling resources that I have).
I need to find the video by Stephen AND the Karma example of easily converting keyboard chords into guitar chords and licks.
(Help?)
The only thing holding back most guitar players is the cost and accuracy of MIDI pickups.
Thanks for the tip on the Godin.
BTW: "Heads up" to bass players as well.
What we REALLY need is an "audio to MIDI" (with articulation CCs)(envelopes) for single note (reduced tempo) use. . . . .
(First, gotta finish Jerry's (KORG's) neat questionnaire)
Very important.
Thanks Daz !
PilgrimJohn
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Kevin Nolan
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Daz -
That's an amazing sound. I'm not 100% clear on what you're saying. Is this a MIDI guitar device playing the STR-1. Care to describe its characteristics a bit more? Is it still available? Between it, and Stephen Kay's 'manual advance' programs, it looks like OASYS is in a spacial place regarding MIDI guitar performances.
Kevin.
That's an amazing sound. I'm not 100% clear on what you're saying. Is this a MIDI guitar device playing the STR-1. Care to describe its characteristics a bit more? Is it still available? Between it, and Stephen Kay's 'manual advance' programs, it looks like OASYS is in a spacial place regarding MIDI guitar performances.
Kevin.
Hi Kevin,
That last output you can connect to a box like the Roland GI-20 or Terratec Axon 50 which in turn will convert the pitched signal received from each individual string into MIDI note data. I have a GI-20 and on the rear of that unit is a standard MIDI OUT socket. I just plugged that into the Oasys MIDI IN using a standard MIDI cable, just as if I was plugging in a MIDI controller keyboard.
All I did here was dial up one of the STR-1 factory Programs in Program mode and then transfer it with it's effects into SEQ mode. I recorded a guide drum track (using KARMA) and then recorded MIDI from the guitar into the sequencer that triggered the STR-1. So the guitar sound is purely STR-1 and the amp/cab simulation IFX. There's no audio coming from the guitar itself. For me, recording a guitar to a MIDI track was such a strange experience. As I said, in many ways it's just like playing the guitar, but there are other key ways in which it is really very different. For example, it's very odd not to hear the sound of your fingers dragging on the strings as you slide a barre chord up the fretboard. There are a whole bunch of other guitar gestures that also don't translate to MIDI, however it only takes a few (very fun!) minutes to understand what works and what doesn't, and to adapt your playing style. I am sure after some further practice I will get some better performances than this.
The biggest hurdle for the designers of this technology is converting the pitch at which a string is vibrating into a MIDI note/velocity accurately and also doing that sufficiently quickly that there is isn't too much latency between hitting the string and then hearing the MIDI sound source play that note.
Most of the MIDI guitar systems seem to consist of two parts :
1) A guitar with a special pickup that generates a signal for each of the individual strings.
2) A device that converts those signals into MIDI data for use with external gear or a synth built into the device.
These two parts connect using a special 13 pin connector/cable, which follows a standard devised by Roland. In the same way that MIDI lets us connect up many different vendors equipment and have them interoperate correctly, this 13-pin standard lets you pick and choose which guitar and which pitch->MIDI converter you want to use together. You are not limited to Roland equipment only.
For the guitar part you have a bunch of options :
1) Buy a Roland pickup and mount that onto an existing standard electric guitar (Roland GK-3)
2) Buy a guitar such as the Fender Roland Ready Strat which is a standard Mexican made Fender strat with a Roland GK2A pickup mounted on it at the factory.
3) Buy a guitar that has a non-Roland pickup system built-in, from a manufacturer like Godin or Parker, but is compatible with the 13-pin standard.
For the converter/interface there are again a mixture of Roland and non-Roland options
1) Buy a Roland GI-20, that will convert the string pitch to MIDI note data for use in your MIDI setup
2) Buy a Roland GR-20 that will converts the string pitch to MIDI note data and use that to drive it's own built-in synth engine or a MIDI output.
3) Buy a non-Roland unit like the Terratec Axon AX50 to convert pitch to MIDI.
Both parts contribute to the quick and accurate conversion of the string's pitch to MIDI note and pitch bend data.
I pondered installing a GK3 onto an existing guitar and decided against that, and instead tried the Fender Roland Ready Strat with a Roland GI-20. That really didn't work satisfactorily for me. The latency was bad and the Roland pickup didn't appear to be correctly setup by Fender, as it would not generate a sufficiently strong signal for the GI-20 to be able to correctly differentiate between different 'velocity' levels. In fact the whole installation of the pickup and the associated 13-pin socket just looked to have been poorly done. I knew the GI-20 was good from reports from friends, so I returned the Fender immediately and bought the more expensive Godin LGX-SA. This guitar uses quite a different technique to the Roland pickup system. I believe the Roland system uses a magnetic type pickup similar to a standard electric guitar pickup, whereas the Godin uses a piezo based pickup similar to that used in the Line6 modeling guitars. This combination of the piezo pickup and over all better crafted guitar contribute to producing an output that the GI-20 is far happier to work with. The difference between the two guitars using the SAME GI-20 unit is remarkable.
The only slight wrinkle here is that the STR-1 is not specifically designed to be used with a MIDI'fied guitar setup. You can run the GI-20 in two modes. The first is Poly mode and causes all the MIDI note on/off data generated by striking the strings to be sent to a single channel, just like a MIDI keyboard. That works well however you lose one of unique behaviours of the guitar doing that. The ability to pitch bend an individual note whilst leaving the other notes untouched. In order to activate that capability you have to enable Mono mode on the GI-20, which routes the MIDI generated for each string to a separate MIDI channel. So you need to have 6 STR-1 instances in a combi on channels 1-6 to generate the sound of each string. That chews up a lot of slots and of course denies you opportunity to do any deep Program editing other than Tone Adjust. D'oh. So now I have another reason to wish for this feature, and it's real shame that it only seems to have got as far as Korg's survey and not into a bit of code that lives under the Function button. It seems further away than ever before at this point. Oh well, where there is a will there is a way, and I really have a lot of will to plumb the depths of the fantastic STR-1 engine that Korg so kindly gave us ... one string at a time if needs be
It should be noted that whilst this exposes a weakness of the Korg model, it also exposes a great strength; namely the ability to route multiple timbres/synth engines to the same IFX bus and IFX chain. In this case that equates to routing the six strings of my virtual guitar to a single amp and cabinet, which is essential for realism. You wouldn't be able to do that using the Motif model and the Fantom would not allow you to use so many effects in a chain. It's great that the Fantom G allows you to "embed" a single IFX into a Program (in Korg parlance), but the Korg model offers some benefits too in terms of flexibilty.
Daz.
Essentially yes. The Godin I have has 3 outputs; the first is the signal from the humbucker pickups just like a standard electric guitar, the second is the audio output from the piezo pickups in the bridge which gives you an acoustic guitar like sound (think Ovation), and the third is the "Synth Access" output.Is this a MIDI guitar device playing the STR-1.
That last output you can connect to a box like the Roland GI-20 or Terratec Axon 50 which in turn will convert the pitched signal received from each individual string into MIDI note data. I have a GI-20 and on the rear of that unit is a standard MIDI OUT socket. I just plugged that into the Oasys MIDI IN using a standard MIDI cable, just as if I was plugging in a MIDI controller keyboard.
All I did here was dial up one of the STR-1 factory Programs in Program mode and then transfer it with it's effects into SEQ mode. I recorded a guide drum track (using KARMA) and then recorded MIDI from the guitar into the sequencer that triggered the STR-1. So the guitar sound is purely STR-1 and the amp/cab simulation IFX. There's no audio coming from the guitar itself. For me, recording a guitar to a MIDI track was such a strange experience. As I said, in many ways it's just like playing the guitar, but there are other key ways in which it is really very different. For example, it's very odd not to hear the sound of your fingers dragging on the strings as you slide a barre chord up the fretboard. There are a whole bunch of other guitar gestures that also don't translate to MIDI, however it only takes a few (very fun!) minutes to understand what works and what doesn't, and to adapt your playing style. I am sure after some further practice I will get some better performances than this.
The biggest hurdle for the designers of this technology is converting the pitch at which a string is vibrating into a MIDI note/velocity accurately and also doing that sufficiently quickly that there is isn't too much latency between hitting the string and then hearing the MIDI sound source play that note.
Most of the MIDI guitar systems seem to consist of two parts :
1) A guitar with a special pickup that generates a signal for each of the individual strings.
2) A device that converts those signals into MIDI data for use with external gear or a synth built into the device.
These two parts connect using a special 13 pin connector/cable, which follows a standard devised by Roland. In the same way that MIDI lets us connect up many different vendors equipment and have them interoperate correctly, this 13-pin standard lets you pick and choose which guitar and which pitch->MIDI converter you want to use together. You are not limited to Roland equipment only.
For the guitar part you have a bunch of options :
1) Buy a Roland pickup and mount that onto an existing standard electric guitar (Roland GK-3)
2) Buy a guitar such as the Fender Roland Ready Strat which is a standard Mexican made Fender strat with a Roland GK2A pickup mounted on it at the factory.
3) Buy a guitar that has a non-Roland pickup system built-in, from a manufacturer like Godin or Parker, but is compatible with the 13-pin standard.
For the converter/interface there are again a mixture of Roland and non-Roland options
1) Buy a Roland GI-20, that will convert the string pitch to MIDI note data for use in your MIDI setup
2) Buy a Roland GR-20 that will converts the string pitch to MIDI note data and use that to drive it's own built-in synth engine or a MIDI output.
3) Buy a non-Roland unit like the Terratec Axon AX50 to convert pitch to MIDI.
Both parts contribute to the quick and accurate conversion of the string's pitch to MIDI note and pitch bend data.
I pondered installing a GK3 onto an existing guitar and decided against that, and instead tried the Fender Roland Ready Strat with a Roland GI-20. That really didn't work satisfactorily for me. The latency was bad and the Roland pickup didn't appear to be correctly setup by Fender, as it would not generate a sufficiently strong signal for the GI-20 to be able to correctly differentiate between different 'velocity' levels. In fact the whole installation of the pickup and the associated 13-pin socket just looked to have been poorly done. I knew the GI-20 was good from reports from friends, so I returned the Fender immediately and bought the more expensive Godin LGX-SA. This guitar uses quite a different technique to the Roland pickup system. I believe the Roland system uses a magnetic type pickup similar to a standard electric guitar pickup, whereas the Godin uses a piezo based pickup similar to that used in the Line6 modeling guitars. This combination of the piezo pickup and over all better crafted guitar contribute to producing an output that the GI-20 is far happier to work with. The difference between the two guitars using the SAME GI-20 unit is remarkable.
The only slight wrinkle here is that the STR-1 is not specifically designed to be used with a MIDI'fied guitar setup. You can run the GI-20 in two modes. The first is Poly mode and causes all the MIDI note on/off data generated by striking the strings to be sent to a single channel, just like a MIDI keyboard. That works well however you lose one of unique behaviours of the guitar doing that. The ability to pitch bend an individual note whilst leaving the other notes untouched. In order to activate that capability you have to enable Mono mode on the GI-20, which routes the MIDI generated for each string to a separate MIDI channel. So you need to have 6 STR-1 instances in a combi on channels 1-6 to generate the sound of each string. That chews up a lot of slots and of course denies you opportunity to do any deep Program editing other than Tone Adjust. D'oh. So now I have another reason to wish for this feature, and it's real shame that it only seems to have got as far as Korg's survey and not into a bit of code that lives under the Function button. It seems further away than ever before at this point. Oh well, where there is a will there is a way, and I really have a lot of will to plumb the depths of the fantastic STR-1 engine that Korg so kindly gave us ... one string at a time if needs be
It should be noted that whilst this exposes a weakness of the Korg model, it also exposes a great strength; namely the ability to route multiple timbres/synth engines to the same IFX bus and IFX chain. In this case that equates to routing the six strings of my virtual guitar to a single amp and cabinet, which is essential for realism. You wouldn't be able to do that using the Motif model and the Fantom would not allow you to use so many effects in a chain. It's great that the Fantom G allows you to "embed" a single IFX into a Program (in Korg parlance), but the Korg model offers some benefits too in terms of flexibilty.
Daz.
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kenackr
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 521
- Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:52 pm
- Location: Corpus Christi Metro Area
Daz,
Thanks for the remarkable insight on this approach. I understand your desire to be able to strum chords in the way a guitar player would, rather than trying to fight with manual advance and still not getting exactly what you want.
Since I once owned a music store and was a Roland dealer (among other manufacturers) I got to play with all the Roland toys and the guitar synth was really a blast but it definitely had tracking problems at that time (mid to late 90's). It was, as you said, the pickups were not quite right.
I'm glad to hear that someone like Godin has jumped in on this.
From your post, I gather that implementing strumed chords has not gone exactly as you had hoped, is that a correct understanding?
Would you mind revealing the cost of the Godin you purchased?
Thanks,
Ken
Thanks for the remarkable insight on this approach. I understand your desire to be able to strum chords in the way a guitar player would, rather than trying to fight with manual advance and still not getting exactly what you want.
Since I once owned a music store and was a Roland dealer (among other manufacturers) I got to play with all the Roland toys and the guitar synth was really a blast but it definitely had tracking problems at that time (mid to late 90's). It was, as you said, the pickups were not quite right.
I'm glad to hear that someone like Godin has jumped in on this.
From your post, I gather that implementing strumed chords has not gone exactly as you had hoped, is that a correct understanding?
Would you mind revealing the cost of the Godin you purchased?
Thanks,
Ken
O88, T1, Wavestation, M1r, Pa 4X 76, Proteus 1-3, Morpheus, UltraProteus, K1200, Akai S2000, DP8
Hi Ken,
Thanks. The Godin LGX-SA I bought was $1500; expensive compared to the Oasys as it is only 6 note polyphonic
The "artificial" strumming mechanism's I've heard from things like Karma are good, and whilst I would prefer to just play guitar material myself using a MIDI guitar setup that wasn't really my motivation for getting a MIDI guitar setup. I do want to use the setup to take advantage of the guitar and plucked string modelling of STR-1, but I also just really like the idea of playing non-guitar sounds this way. The guitar was my first instrument and I've played the keyboards for a while with a "guitar accent" so I figured why not just give in and try playing synth using a guitar.
A big thing for me at the moment is getting music composed and recorded as quickly and effectively as possible, so this part of that strategy. I've gone back to writing songs on an acoustic guitar and other such back-to-basics activities. I'd fallen into that trap of being a little too much of a "tinkerer" and getting distracted from getting songs written and recorded.
Anyway, back on topic ... another option is to look at the Carvin Synth Access guitar. The Godin uses the RMC pickup system, and the Carvin's use the Graphtech system which I have also read great things about -> http://www.carvinguitars.com/
Daz.
Thanks. The Godin LGX-SA I bought was $1500; expensive compared to the Oasys as it is only 6 note polyphonic
The "artificial" strumming mechanism's I've heard from things like Karma are good, and whilst I would prefer to just play guitar material myself using a MIDI guitar setup that wasn't really my motivation for getting a MIDI guitar setup. I do want to use the setup to take advantage of the guitar and plucked string modelling of STR-1, but I also just really like the idea of playing non-guitar sounds this way. The guitar was my first instrument and I've played the keyboards for a while with a "guitar accent" so I figured why not just give in and try playing synth using a guitar.
A big thing for me at the moment is getting music composed and recorded as quickly and effectively as possible, so this part of that strategy. I've gone back to writing songs on an acoustic guitar and other such back-to-basics activities. I'd fallen into that trap of being a little too much of a "tinkerer" and getting distracted from getting songs written and recorded.
Anyway, back on topic ... another option is to look at the Carvin Synth Access guitar. The Godin uses the RMC pickup system, and the Carvin's use the Graphtech system which I have also read great things about -> http://www.carvinguitars.com/
Daz.
Great guitar sound! Roughly, how much idoes a Godin cost? They look a bit like Paul Reed Smith guitars, which are very expensive.
I asked for a demo of the Roland MIDI pickup at a Guitar Center. It was pretty hard for the sales guy to get it to work well. I was tempted to buy it because it was relatively inexpensive, but I didn't because I was concerned it would just prove to be frustrating. Also, I didn't really want to stick a cheesy-looking plastic pickup on my Les Paul. Sentimental reasons, I suppose.
I asked for a demo of the Roland MIDI pickup at a Guitar Center. It was pretty hard for the sales guy to get it to work well. I was tempted to buy it because it was relatively inexpensive, but I didn't because I was concerned it would just prove to be frustrating. Also, I didn't really want to stick a cheesy-looking plastic pickup on my Les Paul. Sentimental reasons, I suppose.
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kenackr
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 521
- Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:52 pm
- Location: Corpus Christi Metro Area
Daz,
Thanks for the reply, but I'm still not clear on if you felt that strumming chords worked well.
Do you feel that you get a good response without latency and that all notes in the chord are represented?
Ken
Thanks for the reply, but I'm still not clear on if you felt that strumming chords worked well.
Do you feel that you get a good response without latency and that all notes in the chord are represented?
Ken
O88, T1, Wavestation, M1r, Pa 4X 76, Proteus 1-3, Morpheus, UltraProteus, K1200, Akai S2000, DP8
Sorry Ken ... I misunderstood. Strumming chords works really well. The tracking is extremely quick and accurate, so strumming is captured and reproduced as you'd expect. The latency is good, but still noticeable. However it is not so delayed that you feel unable to work with it, as I had experienced using the Roland pickup system on the Roland Ready Strat.kenackr wrote:
Thanks for the reply, but I'm still not clear on if you felt that strumming chords worked well.
Do you feel that you get a good response without latency and that all notes in the chord are represented?
Ken
Daz.
-
kenackr
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 521
- Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:52 pm
- Location: Corpus Christi Metro Area
Daz,
Thanks for clearing that up. It was what I was hoping for.
BTW for anyone else who is interested, I checked out the Carvin website and it appeared to me that they only have 2 synth access models.
An arch top 2 1/2" thick electric/acoustic hollow body with the synth access for $1880 and the NS1 nylon string acoustic (I didn't look at the price).
If one was playing on primarily solid body guitars, it might be interesting to get the hollow body for the different tone it offers, if you also wanted to have synth access.
At any rate, there are several Godin offerings in solid bodies and acoustic at various price ranges. In the electric solid bodies they have 2 models under $1000, 2 at $1500ish, and 2 at $1800ish.
Ken
Thanks for clearing that up. It was what I was hoping for.
BTW for anyone else who is interested, I checked out the Carvin website and it appeared to me that they only have 2 synth access models.
An arch top 2 1/2" thick electric/acoustic hollow body with the synth access for $1880 and the NS1 nylon string acoustic (I didn't look at the price).
If one was playing on primarily solid body guitars, it might be interesting to get the hollow body for the different tone it offers, if you also wanted to have synth access.
At any rate, there are several Godin offerings in solid bodies and acoustic at various price ranges. In the electric solid bodies they have 2 models under $1000, 2 at $1500ish, and 2 at $1800ish.
Ken
O88, T1, Wavestation, M1r, Pa 4X 76, Proteus 1-3, Morpheus, UltraProteus, K1200, Akai S2000, DP8
Daz,
Sounds real good! This will open up an entirely new arsenal for you.(Sound, writing, and recording wise)
I'm sure the way you have to apply yourself must be awkward at first, especially if you layer up a couple of patches.
Probably an excellant tool for a guitar player as yourself.
Funny thing I saw Jon Anderson a couple of years ago perform with his midi Backpacker,
not nearly as tuned as the setups you can get your hands on today.
Good luck with it.. it actually sounds like fun!
Sounds real good! This will open up an entirely new arsenal for you.(Sound, writing, and recording wise)
I'm sure the way you have to apply yourself must be awkward at first, especially if you layer up a couple of patches.
Probably an excellant tool for a guitar player as yourself.
Funny thing I saw Jon Anderson a couple of years ago perform with his midi Backpacker,
not nearly as tuned as the setups you can get your hands on today.
Good luck with it.. it actually sounds like fun!
Lou