Pa2X Pro SysEx docs ?

[mbncp]

My setup is a little special as I use a custom app that deals with all my midi gear (pa2x,m3, bcr2000, fcb1010,..).
Then it's that app that sends the midi back to the hardware or to the daw (reaper) using 20 midi vitual ports (loopbe 30), splitting or layering sounds as I want.
Reaper can be synced by spp, but it doesn't adjust the tempo, so I have do do it manualy, that's why my app, that can also send macros, will set the correct tempo in reaper (there's a little delay to avoid too many changes).
As soon as I start the sequencer in reaper, both synth are automatically synced from it. This is a great feature of the M3 as you can set the clock to auto, if it doesn't receive any midi clock it will use it's internal clock (tempo). But when it receives a clock message, it switches to external sync and will follow that new tempo (really smart).

Anyway, in my live setup situation I need the pa2x to control the tempo. The problem with the m3 is that karma will stop when you switch combi.
In that case, my soft will just re-trigger the last chord at the beginning of the next measure, so karma will stay perfectly synced.

Now I wouldn't mind having some better control over the pa2x, and if korg has some extra info that we don't have have, it would be kind to let us know.

[iaoranaemaeva]

Now I wouldn't mind having some better control over the pa2x, and if korg has some extra info that we don't have have, it would be kind to let us know.

As time goes by, Korg seems to give less and less technical information about their arrangers. Some examples :

- i3-series manuals gave full MIDI implementation, which disappeared in Pa-series.

- Pa80/60/50 manual appendix shew a "Parameters" table that summarized the organization of parameters on disk and memory ; this table is no longer present for later pa models.

- i30 manual gave details and comments about the Velocity and Aftertouch curves. For Pa models, nothing

There must be a reason for that policy ! Maybe arrangers are definitely considered as non-professional, in spite of the catchy "P" in their name ? This is not unlikely, considering that most arranger users never modify the parameter factory settings (not to say creating sounds or styles...).

But if this is the unconfessed thought of Korg's marketing people, why do they include all these sophisticated features e.g. sampling etc.?

[looo]

Hi Looo,
Thanks for the link to that thread.

As we all know, even though CC are used for the PA functions, these in turn trigger sysex events within the PA beneath the surface.

Hi Dennis!
I don't know anything about this fact....actually i can't imagine why PA should internally convert CCs into transitional SYSEX data instead of direct operating corresponding PA hard - and software modules. Maybe i misunderstood here something?

....
I have read elsewhere that the PA2x shares some of its architecture with the M3, perhaps some experimenting with the sysex data from it may lead to further insights? As well as data from the last triton?
Maybe between all of us, we can come up with some sysex data of our own, at least for the basic stuff anyway..

I tried to take a look at SYSEX data formats of some former Korg synth but found that implemented in PA series to be unique.
I've got some idea about the reason behind discussed PA series limitations, namely this is the way Korg separates its two basic synth classes: "professional" and "other". Professional synth like M3 are well equipped to work in studios under control of pro applications like Cubase, Sonar. PA keyboards are designed to work in stand-alone mode and have many capabilities if using built-in interface - from auto arranger to simple wave editor. Had PA all professional features including external controllability, sales of professional gears like M3 would considerably degrade bearing in mind that PA is based upon professional Triton series sounds. Marked laws dictate not to produce ideal product it seems much more attractive to a manufacturer to prompt customer to buy another complementary device free of annoying shortcomings.
BTW another manufacturers do also pursue this sort of policy. For example Yamaha in PSR series restricts number of instruments, especially Drum kits compared to professional Motif, the gap in sound quality between PSR and Motif is much wider than that between PA and Triton&M3. Apparently taking this fact in consideration Yamaha retains full external controllability and documentation within high-end PSR and Tyros range without a fear to cut off Motif sales. Korg, having implemented "professional" Triton sound, invented its way of downgrading PA status in the eyes of professionals: restricted external controllablity, removed "Insert" effects and so on.

By the way, you do know there IS a way to access user/factory sounds from midi that retain the insert effects?

As far as i know insert effects are not implemented in PA series. Anyway I haven't tried to do similar things myself so have no ideas....

[miden]

Deleted - as it was a waste of time

[miden]

Deleted - as it was a waste of time

[miden]

Deleted - as it was a waste of time

[mbncp]

I don't think that the M3 and the PA share the same system, as the architecture is very different.

Btw, here is the sysex doc from the M3,very nicely done.
http://www.korg.com/service/downloadinfo.asp?DID=1404

I can understand that they are not too crazy about making the doc as it's some work, but even something raw would do.

[miden]

Deleted - as it was a waste of time

[mbncp]

Agreed, but don't you simply want to send a Tempo message to the M3 from the PA?

I'm sending the clock from the pa to the M3, which is fine.
I also know how to set the tempo on the m3, it's something like:
F0 42 30 75 41 00 00 0D 00 00 00 00 XX YY ZZ F7
The tempo is set in the last 3 bytes (before the F7), tempo = (XX*128*128+YY*128+ZZ)/100

Btw, yamaha doesn't send it under this format, but the same way as the tempo meta event that you'll see in a midi file: 60*1000*1000/Tempo, then you need to convert to 28 bits (4 bytes of 7 bits). Midi is just so much fun

What I would like is the pa sending the tempo value (not the clock) to my app (via sysex or anything, like the m3 or any psr does), but that doesn't seem possible.
Anyway, I can receive the clock from the pa to my app, it will be a little more work, but it's possible to retrieve the tempo this way, and then updating my daw.

Is it me or is the pa not sending the transpose value to midi out ? Makes these buttons pretty much useless.

[miden]

That is what I have been saying all along it DOES send the tempo!!!! And not just the clock, yes you need to have the clock on, but you must have the clock source setting to external, either USB or MIDI

Have you even LOOKED at the GLOBAL-MIDI page???

Anyway, I am not wasting any more of my time when you dont even want to try what has already been stated and what is documented by Korg.

You are on your own as far as I'm concerned...and yes it will transmit transpose, if you know how..but thats for someone else to answer.

"Stick a fork in me, I'm Done"

[mbncp]

Just relax, I don't want you to get a heart attack

Indeed the pa can send midi clock, which is a standard message that the synth will send 24 times per beat, so other hardware can stay in sync.
But what I was looking for is a different message, normally a sysex that some hardware like my psr s900, the m3 will send only once, actually everytime the tempo changes, but not as a continous events like midi clock.
And it's the later that the pa doesn't send and that's what I was looking for.
Actually most host (including sonar) don't read that value, they only know the tempo by watching the midi clock.

So how do you make the pa send some message to let another synth know it has been transpose by 2 semi tones or what ever.

[Rob Sherratt]

how do you make the pa send some message to let another synth know it has been transpose by 2 semi tones or what ever.

You don't need to, because all midi out notes will be transposed by 2 semitones.

[mbncp]

how do you make the pa send some message to let another synth know it has been transpose by 2 semi tones or what ever.

You don't need to, because all midi out notes will be transposed by 2 semitones.

I'm not sending the midi from one synth to the other, they each play their own parts from their own keys.
It would have been nice to be able to use the transpose buttons (b #) on the pa and let the m3 know that it should transpose by the same amount, especially that the m3 doesn't have transpose buttons, though I can use a foot pedal or some controller for that.

Now, is there some message (midi) that the pa can interpret as a global transpose ?

I try to send a MASTER COARSE TUNING to the pa, but I don't hear any change. Sending the same message to the m3 will transpose according to the midi spec (it shows also in the global page).
Ex, this message should transpose ANY synth by +1 semi tone:
F0 7F 7F 04 04 00 41 F7

I'm wondering what this GeneralMIDI2 logo is for on the pa2xPRO

[looo]

how do you make the pa send some message to let another synth know it has been transpose by 2 semi tones or what ever.

You don't need to, because all midi out notes will be transposed by 2 semitones.

I'm not sending the midi from one synth to the other, they each play their own parts from their own keys.
It would have been nice to be able to use the transpose buttons (b #) on the pa and let the m3 know that it should transpose by the same amount, especially that the m3 doesn't have transpose buttons, though I can use a foot pedal or some controller for that.

Now, is there some message (midi) that the pa can interpret as a global transpose ?

I try to send a MASTER COARSE TUNING to the pa, but I don't hear any change. Sending the same message to the m3 will transpose according to the midi spec (it shows also in the global page).
Ex, this message should transpose ANY synth by +1 semi tone:
F0 7F 7F 04 04 00 41 F7

I'm wondering what this GeneralMIDI2 logo is for on the pa2xPRO

Haven't you forgotten to check receive SYSEX filter state on your PA?

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi mbncp,

I agree with you that any GM2 compatible instrument should be capable to send and receive the following GM2 universal SysEx messages:

• Master Volume, Fine Tuning, Coarse Tuning
  Reverb Type, Time
  Chorus Type, Mod Rate, Mod Depth, Feedback, Send to Reverb
  Controller Destination Setting
  Scale/Octave Tuning Adjust
  Key-Based Instrument Controllers
  GM2 System On

Now, since Korg say that the Pa2x is GM2 compatible, it should mean that if you use an external controller to generate a GM2 "Scale Adjust" universal SysEx message, send it to the Pa2x (ensure the SysEx filter is OFF), then it should work. The "Scale Adjust" and other GM2 SysEx messages are documented in the GM2 specification (not free) available here:

http://www.midi.org/about-midi/docorder.shtml